Doug Smith, in particular, has posted a couple of replies lately about one phenomenon that, from here, is particularly resonant. With apologies, I've already lost track of the operant threads. But in the contexts of Phoenician coins of Tyre, and very late Byzantine, he's noted that, relative both to the module of the flan, and indifferent striking, you have to kind of pick and choose which elements of the legends and motifs you really want to show up on any given example. ...Thanks, Doug. This kind of problem is endemic to earlier medievals, only most conspicuously over what corresponds to northern France, the Low Countries, and western Germany, c. 11th-12th centuries. Here's one iconic, collective example (pun intended), which I ran smack into just this week, thanks to ebay. These are issues of Speyer (/Speier), attributed to Konrad II, the Salian king ('...of the Romans;' effectively the reigning heir apparent) and emperor of Germany, 1024-1027-1039. Of these, the first one became a member of the family a couple of months ago. The second one was listed by the same dealer just this past week. Bid and lost; it closed at close to twice what I got the first one for. ...But do you see, do you Just See, how neatly the two complement eachother, both for the legends and the motifs? Dang, I wanted that second one. Between the two, they don't even look like a die match, but otherwise, it's as if the coiner was (that badly hung over and) switching hands. ...And the sad part is that, as these demonstrate, Salian and early Staufen denars (c. 11th-12th centuries) have some of the most elaborate engraving that you'll see for this period. ...Shifting to the similarly ambitious designs on several issues of Henry I pennies (on an effectively identical module), it's easy to see a train of influence. Especially in light of the dynastic connections of his only legitimate daughter, 'the Empress Maud,' whose first marriage had been arranged by her father. One conspicuous, ensuing consequence of this sort of thing is that, over much of the European Medieval series, the grading (...good luck with that) is traditionally predicated as much on the strike as on the wear. ...Where collecting this stuff is concerned, it's like, Well, Somebody has to do it!
This reminds me of Russian 'wire' dengas and kopeks. The design was much larger than the flan, so it never comes close to fitting. This is a Peter I kopek (c1700), but they made them the same way (with roughly the same design) from the 1300s: The tsar on the obverse has half a horse (and no mintmark), but at least he has a head (with crown), which he sometimes doesn't. The legend on the reverse is meant to be: [TSAR AND GRAND PRINCE, P]ETR [A]LEX[IOV]ICH, [OF ALL RUSSIA], but all the letters in square brackets are missing. Which letters you get depends on how the legend was 'wrapped' - it was written in one long series of letters, breaking at the edge of the die rather than the end of a sentence - and whether the strike was 'portrait' or 'landscape'. Obviously it's better if the distinct part of tsar's name is visible. (There was only one Peter issuing wire money, so this coin is easy. Ivan is less so).
Interesting post, @+VGO.DVCKS, interesting and attractive coins, congrats on the one you acquired. A few attempts to find anything remotely like these coins in VCoins and ACSearch suggest that these are pretty tough coins to find. A draw of CT for me is reading about coins and history, that I never knew existed, this qualifies as I try to post something even remotely relevant: the closest I can come to a coin in the right century, not a German Emperor, not 11-12th century. Silver pfennig, Frederick II, Nurnberg AD 1230-1246 Italy, Venice, Giovanni Soranzo, AD 1312-1328, AR Grosso Right: IO SVPANTIO SM VENETI, Doge and St. Mark standing facing, holding banner between them DVX going down Left: IC - XC, Christ Pantocrator enthroned facing
John, this couldn't be more relevant, where the technology is concerned. ...Yeah, I've let a couple of 'wire dengas' go, just on ebay, and lived to regret it.
No, Sulla, if you lack whatever genetic impairment is involved in collecting this stuff full time, you're Just Fine! Your examples are Solid. The one of Friedrich II made me sit up.
This 10th century Otto is offcenter AND very carelessly struck. Holy Roman Empire, AR denarius in the name of the emperor(s) Otto, Cologne. 10th century. Obv. COLON. Rev. Cross, four dots in the corners. ODDOREX. 16 mm, 1.53 gr. Häv. 34. ... whereas some other coins of that era are perfectly centered - only weakly struck in the text circles. Groningen, bishop Bernulph (1040-1054). AR denarius. Obv. Bishop’s crosier with legend BACVLVS. Around this+ BERNVLDVS EPS. Rev. Cross with four points in the corners. GRONINGA or something like it. 17 mm, 0.68 gr. Ilisch I, 18.3.
Oh no, you have opened Pandora's box, @+VGO.DVCKS ! I had promised myself to never again show these on CoinTalk out of serious fear to discourage young and aspiring medieval collectors for forever, but you got me once you mentioned Conrad II... Things only get worse if you go east from Speyer. Here is my small collection of Ottonian and early Salian "Saxon Pennies." Virtually all surviving examples suffer from seriously bad workmanship. Though they are not pretty, these coins are historically important, since the Harz silver they were struck from fueled both the re-monetization of the European economy and the establishment of long distance trade between the Holy Roman Empire and its Eastern and Northern neighbors: Otto III with Adelheid of Burgundy as regent (or immobilized under their successors), Holy Roman Empire, "Otto-Adelheid-Penny," 983/991– ca. 1050, probably Goslar mint. Obv: [+D]'I GR'A + R[EX], cross with OD[D]O in quadrangles. Rev: [A]TEAH[LHT]; "wooden church," pellet to right. 19mm, 1.39g. Hatz IV 5/6. Magdeburg, Imperial mint, "Saxon penny," probably issued under Otto III (r. 983–1002 AD) and Archbishop Giselher (984–1004 AD). Obv: ...I M I... (corrupted MAGADEBURG); "wooden church" with four pellets inside; three pellets to l. and r. Rev: ...EI°III... (corrupted IN NOMINE DNI AMEN), cross pattée. 16mm, 1.27g. Ref: Dannenberg 1330; Mehl 30; Kilger Mg HP 1; Slg Hauswaldt 14. "Saxon penny", anonymous regional issue, under Conrad II, ca. 1025–1030 AD, struck in the region around Meißen. Obv: legend of wedges and retrograde [C]-V-X-R (CRVX–type), cross trefly. Rev: legend of wedges and H-[E?]-V-R (VERH–type), cross of wedges. 16mm, 1.10g. Ref: Type Mol A 2; Dannenberg 1335a–c. "Saxon penny", anonymous regional issue, under the early Salian emperors (Conrad II – Henry IV), ca. 1025–1060 AD, struck in the Saale region close to Naumburg. Obv: legend of wedges and retrograde [R?]- X-I-V (CRVX–type), cross with pellets and ringlets in quadrants. Rev: legend of wedges and C-V-X-[R?] (CRVX–type), cross of wedges. 16mm, 1.17g. Ref: Type Sal D 2:1; Dannenberg 1337. "Saxon penny", anonymous regional issue, under the early Salian emperors (Conrad II – Henry IV), ca. 1025–1060 AD, struck in the Saale region close to Naumburg. Obv: legend of wedges, strokes and X-P, cross with pellets and crescents in quadrants. Rev: legend of wedges and C-V-X-[?] (CRVX–type), cross of wedges. 16mm, 1.08g. Ref: Type Sal D 2:1: Dannenberg 1337 var (obv. legend). Many pecks. The most interesting design feature on these is the raised edge, presumably hammered up to prove the quality of the silver – strongly debased alloys would have been too brittle for this:
Thanks, Pellinore; a brilliant demonstration of the range, from 'typical' to 'near-absolute best case.' Your Groningen one is really exceptional, including the flan, never mind the amazing amount of legend. Something did happen over here, just now, along similar lines. Right after losing the second Speier one, I wound up with the first one below, of Hermann, minted in Jever, in eastern Frisia. For comparison, the one below that, attributed to his elder brother, Ordulf, Graf of Sachsen /Saxony, is typical in every way; unintentionally anepigraphic. (...I don't have any remotely comprehensive reference for these, except Dannengberg, in full view on Google Books (cordially despise the navigation). The two issues are variously dated 1059 /1062 -1071/2 (Ordulf) and 1059 (sic)-1086 (Hermann). On some web listings, the dealers (including German ones) don't even try to distinguish them. ...Sadly, I'm having trouble at the moment finding one German listing in particular that gave the full legends. Sorry to be caught so far behind the eight ball on this.)
Thanks, Orielensis, for stepping off the plank with these. ...Otherwise, just a rueful, "Yep, ...Yep...." Honestly, though, are there viable alternatives to Google Books for Dannenberg? Any help you or anyone could be would be keenly appreciated.
...Another thing that eventually jumped out at me about your examples is how relatively few peck marks there are. But I've been getting most of my stuff anywhere in this range from Latvia, symptomizing the specifically Balkan side of the trade network. ...Might as well come clean. I collect very eclectically in this period, but am newest of all to the German and eastern Low Countries end of it. Hope to continue benefitting from your and other people's expertise.
