What are the "Hobby Killers"?

Two hobby killers ive seen are bogus youtube videos that try to just get you to click it like "Rare uncirculated 1974 pennies are worth thousands at auctions" stuff like that also not have a trustable coin dealer near you or a bank willing to give you boxes to roll search. Ive found 2 dealers near me I usualy go to because they are honest ,the 2 others sell clad half dollars for 20 bucks because its your grandsons birth year to boomers who think they are rare. I almost quit when I couldnt find a dealer I could get certain years and mint marks from for a 200% markup because my bank stopped letting me get boxes of coins because of it shutting down. Then I took a bit of time and found some more local dealers that were honest.Also found a new bank. Just keep being determined and you can find what you need.

 

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I think that she meant something more personal.

If you collect, say, Buffalo Nickels, and complete the collection, do you stop entirely, or do you find a new passion nearby. Many here came to ancients just by that route.

I take issue with gsalexan here:

First and foremost, Littleton is not in the same class as The Coin Vault. Littleton supports the hobby tangibly. I could go on but that is a new thread.

On the wider point, though, regardless of who sells what the idea that cany hobby is an "investment" to the hobbyist is illogical and unrealistic. See below, also, about golf. We here point out that while you might not get 50% of retail for your coins, that is more than you will get for your golf card at the clubhouse. Hobbies are for fun.

And, you can make money at it. People do. Millions of us who are amateur astronomers do not make money at it, nor do we expect to. But some do. (I paid another astronomer about $350 for two prints he shot. He sells pictures.) It is mostly a matter of your own skills, talents, and interests. Too few people learn to make money at what they love. I hear that from people who tell me that they would "like to be" writers. But no matter how many words they lay down, they never submit a manuscript.

Ewomack struck on a truth in that post"

But that would apply to Ed Trumpeter and Dwight Manley and John J. Pitmann as well. Not so much letting their money sit idle. That never works. But I mean that if they had invested the effort and thought and money into their primary businesses, they would have been money ahead... just not so happy, having missed out on a hobby for personal enjoyment.

I had to google COINS BIE. You gotta be kidding... Wow.

Yes, at the last ANA in Chicago, there was a huge mainstream of handwringers decrying the present and the future, while just a few of us spoke of the glass half full.

But I have to disagree with the impact of the Internet we all love:

It is not that the hobby is dying because only 20,000 people do this or that, but that those numbers represent core engagement. My point was exactly the same as yours, in fact. I cited the larger numbers as the outer markers of interest. And that applies to anything. Millions watch Neil Degrasse Tyson. Fewer own telescopes. Fewer still subscribe to Sky & Telescope. How many people watch football on TV versus those who (1) go to a game and then against (2) those who play... or coach Pop Warner... or whatever. Football is not dying. And fantasy football is not a hobby killer. Put numismatics in that context.

 

Counterfeits in general, and the Chinese ones in particular, have done a lot of damage to the hobby. They are even counterfeiting the certification holders and putting their counterfeits in them. The quickest way to drive off a new collector is have to tell him or her that they have been taken for a few hundred dollars by a counterfeit coin.

National mints, including our own, are hurting the hobby too. You simply can’t keep up with all this junk, and it’s turning reference books into expensive and unwieldy phone books with all of the ridiculous listings for this numismatic foolishness. The Red Book is getting overwhelmed with this stuff.

Spink has the right idea for cataloguing British coinage. Their annual price guide is divided into two books. The hardcover book covers the pre-decimal coinage. The softcover book covers everything after the decimal system of coinage was introduced. I keep the first book and sell the second one for a nominal amount because virtually nothing in it interests me.

I wish the Red Book would do that. The break point could be the year 2000.

 

As a millennial myself I don't think many millennials know what they are missing. They have no clue since they have never experienced it first hand or have had subpar first experiences. Most of the people I talk to about coins think that coin collecting is about collecting Lincoln Cents and other newer and honestly boring designs, they have no clue about what is available in the more Classic coin series like 3-cent silver or capped bust coinage.

What got me rejuvenated after getting burned out was local coin shows that had lots of variety and you get to see lots of coins you won't ever see in the local coin dealer's shop. You can also make lots of friends at shows which is not possible at coin shops in which the personality of the dealer carries the day and many are not that charismatic or willing to promote their wares to new collectors.

 

Thanks for the reply, GD, and for the doff of the hat. I was thinking of the individual hobbyist, rather than the hobby per se. As far as I know, no one in astronomy claims that any egregious situation will kill amateur astronomy per se, but, rather, many people get a telescope, use it a few times and then never touch it again. The fault is not in the stars. When I posed the question in an astronomy forum, the agreed upon view was that such people probably had low interest in the first place. It was a passing fancy. But the loss of the hobbyist was an individual thing.

So, too, here, I believe. People collect. We accept that. But the individual who has one or more bad experiences early on will find some other outlet for those passions of completeness, condition, rarity, and value.

Do you think that the persons who paid $500,000 and $1 million for "Continental Curency" coins in silver tagged Mint State and then Extremely Fine, (or $25,000 for a Good in brass) graded and authenticated, and lavished with praiseful prose in the auction catalogs now have had their enjoyment killed because none of these objects was really made in America for Congressional consideration?

 

Thanks. That speaks to numismatics broadly and allied or related fields more generally, such as stamps or books. Clifford Mishler (http://www.eclecticpursuitsiola.com) called collecting "a gene you do not inherit." (I once had an editor change that to "a gene you inherit" which is redundant and not what he said.) Sometimes we find collecting in families, often skipping a generation, but most often, it is one person in the family and just that person. But that person shares so much with other collectors.

And I see this in astronomy, just for example. The Astronomy League gives pins and certificates to people who complete projects to sight and record different classes, such as Messiers or planets. Some people pursue those passionately. Even people not in the AL seeking pins to wear will work through sighting and recording all 110 Messier objects. I see them as collectors.

Myself, that is not my passion. I am not a collector in that sense. Just for openers, I lack passions completeness and condition.

But if you pursue Classic federal now, you will likely move into another numismatic niche and then another and then another... Even if at some point you "stop collecting" you will continue to be interested in the subject and likely pick the hobby up again later when your kids are grown.

That's a thing with hobbies like ours: it fits well with the anti-social personality. I know the same story from other collectors who went to a local coin store (LCS) and got a cold reception. On the other hand, I work at an engineering firm and the sales people are as friendly as all get-out.

 

Of course. My mistake. I should have just left it at "several semi-keys."

 

That is interesting. Grading is an important aspect, of course, but yours was the first admission that it is a distinct pleasure in its own right. Fair enough. We do have the grading challenges here.

I agree with the senitment, but has it killed the hobby for you? Have ancients been abandoned by collectors? If anything the restrictions on imports make all the other coins (and objects) that much more interesting. I have a little iron knife from 600 BCE. I have some oil lamps and toga clasps and some other antiquities. If no more are imported, mine are all the more valuable and interesting. I can display them, talk about them, etc.

Thanks for the reply, Hiddendragon. Allow to take those points in a different order.

1. I bought most of my Chinese coins from Frank Robinson and some others from Allen G. Berman, but that was it. On the same basis as you, I just stayed away from that aspect of the hobby. Back in the 1990s, I worked with a guy who had just from working in China and when I showed him my coins, he said that he saw coins "just like that" being made and "soaked in pig brine" and sold to tourists. So, Robinson and Berman notwithstanding, I just never bought any more. But I did buy books about Chinese numismatics. So, in that respect, even that aspect of the hobby was not killed for me.

2. In reply to your other point, I have to agree with Clifford Mishler that completeness is a passion for the true collector. Otherwise, it is just an accumulation. That said, though, I do not think that he meant that every collection must always be complete or it is merely a pile of random stuff. One of the elements of judging an ANA Exhibit is that it is evidence of the "collector's ethic" that you pursue a collection over the course of years (and miles). Anyone with enough money can buy anything. That proves nothing. Consider the accumulation of "Colonel" Edward H. R. Green. The coins are famous because he was, and he was famous only as the spoiled brat of the "Witch of Wall Street." No one thinks of Col. Green as a collector. Now, John Jay Pittman, he was a collector. And he had only "workman's wages" as an employee, albeit a degreed engineer. He was just careful in what he bought over the years.

For myself, my two Whitmans of Mercury Dimes will never have the 1916-D and I do not consider the 1942/1 to be necessary for completeness. But I enjoyed the hunt. The journey was the reward.

The collector's passion (or collector's ethic) for completeness always confronts some limits. And I note that you did not just abandon numismatics. Rather, you focused on different aspects of the hobby. In that respect, I think that you are a true collector. You have the gene.

 

That's not even close to true

 

Before the invention of Roger Burdette, Barbara Gregory suggested that I write an article for The Numismatist about Peace Dollars. It was just an assignment to me. I considered the coin inferior to the Morgan Dollar, just an example of "modern junk." I was surprised to discover that people of the time - the collectors, the numismatist - felt the same way. They hated the coin. Later, researching a different assignment, I found the same negative comments in the numismatic press about the Walking Liberty Half Dollar.

Today, the Peace Dollar is enjoying a reevaluation. The criticisms of the Walker were guickly forgotten, certainly once the series stopped and Franklins came in. Once the Walking Liberty Half became a closed set, it became a collectible.

Also, the Morgan Dollar was such a success for two reasons. The newspapers loved it. But I think that they did because the design was perfect. Poor George Morgan spent years making useless patterns while the Barbers father and son hogged all the work. (And, personally, I think that the Barber coins were cheap knock-offs of little artistic value then or now.) Anyway, George Morgan got in a lot of practice and it paid off.

Well, there is no accounting for taste. But I agree that for me, the attraction in numismatics is the nature of money. (You can find "Francisco's Money Speech" online.). I am not a sports enthusiast. Clearly, the hobbyist pursuit of objects must be supported by some special interest - if not love - for the subject matter.

Some people think that the demise of circulating monetaria media in the wake of electronic payments will hurt the hobby of numismatics. I disagree. If anything, it will make the material all the more alluring. But that applies to baseball, as well. I think that it is a touching and eloquent element in the Deep Space Nine storyline that Commander Sisko loves the game even though no one plays it any more.

Personally, I agree with you. I have argued long (and unsuccessfully) against people who claim that "bogos" are collectible, or that "true numismatists" have "black cabinets" of fakes that they pursue and study. But I argued in vain. People collect Becker forgeries, Rosa forgeries, Slavej forgeries, and the fakes of 1876 from Montroville Dickson. Even John Jay Ford's known fake "Western Assay Bars" were auctioned off. It seems that you and I are out in the cold on this.

And it is not just coins, of course. A couple of weeks ago, I head yet another NPR story about fake fine art. It is a known problem. Museum collections have been condemned.

But think about "stolen valor." The idiots parading in glory they did not earn does not stop other people from volunteering for the military. At some level, you have to pursue your own values by your own standards.

 

Care to go head-to-head on that in another thread?

 

No because it's just dumb and elitist and best to put it nicely. He was a collector so you are already wrong by that statement alone. If his name was actually toxic it wouldn't be mentioned

Brings me back to earlier points of if it isn't done how someone wants it's supposedly wrong.

 

I was going to pass that up but reading it several times, I think that your first point struck home with me but only because it contradicted the second.

I agree with the sentiment. Others have expressed it also. I mean the misperception that other people have about numismatic collecting. I had the same opinion as a child. My uncle was proud of his collection, but they all looked alike to me, coin after coin in blue folders. Why bother? All the more so because so many of his pursuits were actually in circulation at the time. We old guys mention that: when were kids you could still find the occasional Liberty Nickels in change and enough Barber dimes floating around that you knew that such things existed. It is hard to get excited about the mundane.

For you, going to the bank, searching rolls, is the thrill of the hunt. You pursue a collection based on statistically unlikely examples of circulating currency. It is a valid expression of numismatics (for you).

 

Well, that's fine. I actually agree with your major premise. "How can you collect that junk?" is the wrong view. And it is not just the material itself that is questioned but the organization, also. Not only do you have to collect what I do, you have to do it the way I do. I agree: we run into those attitudes; and they are less than unhelpful.

That said, not every criticism is invalid and not every warning is wrongly motivated. And there, we seem to disagree.

 

As far as major collections there are a lot of legit criticisms with how someone does it when they’re trying to get into the history books. That said no matter how they do it they’re still a collector. People can make weird or bad choices and still be a collector. I can’t understand some of the moves from a major collection currently but they’re still a collector.

My objection was really just saying no one would consider Green a collector. Had it been phrased with how the collection was assembled or where resources were put for sure that’s fair game

 

As someone who has belonged to one of the largest and most active astronomy clubs for 20+ years, I can say that people do leave the hobby and have dust collect on their scopes. But it's much less prevalent nowadays since the inclusion of electronics into telescopes makes finding objects that much easier.

Counterfeiting is the #1 threat to numismatics, IMO. If you bought a $1,000 telescope and found out it was a klunker without lenses or guidance controls...or if you bought season tickets to a local baseball club and found out that the tickets were only good for admittance through the 3rd inning.....you'd dump those interests pretty quickly.

Counterfeits are an EXISTENTIAL threat to coin collecting. They destroy people's passion for the hobby which ultimately is the reason that 99.9% of us do it (the other 0.1% are smart enough to make a living off it or make lots of money off the collections). They also wipe out large sums of money right away.

An overgraded coin by 1 or 2 numbers or a surge in product from the U.S. Mint may be an annoyance or hard lession learned...but it won't destroy the hobby.

 

Hmm. I agree that counterfeits are a threat -- but they aren't a new threat. The Internet makes them more visible, and maybe even more available for bad actors, but I'm not sure they're more prevalent than they were in the past.

You can easily put $1000 into a coin that's worth a small fraction of that because it's a counterfeit, or because it's doctored, or because it's overgraded and you haven't mastered grading yet yourself. I'd think that any of those outcomes would kill your interest equally dead.

 

Also important for people to keep in mind this is something they deal with daily in all aspects of life including many aspects where it’s much more of a threat and has bigger consequences if it happens such as medicine.

Point being it’s nothing for people to think the sky is falling over with coins

 

My pharma-industry employer made everyone go through training on counterfeit drugs in the marketplace. One of the exercises: you get a deck of cards, each illustrating a product. "Which of these counterfeit products would you buy?" That threw everyone off -- wasn't the point to see whether we could identify counterfeits?

No, the point was that some people would toss fake handbags or sunglasses or shirts into the "would buy" stack -- but nobody put anything into that stack that would go into their body. No drugs, no foods, no cosmetics.

I'm unhappy at counterfeit coins coming in from overseas, but I'm perfectly happy for our enforcement efforts and resources to focus more heavily on stuff that can be deadly.