Weird Byzantine

I feel I've come up to a decision not to collect Byzantine coins among my ancients. I wonder how after the Romans, the Byzantine coinage had always lacked design, adequate shape and even suitable metallic composition. Here are the last four coins I've acquired without being satisfied, no matter how rare or significant they are.

 

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It seems I've come to a similar conclusion, although some are quite attractive, especially the gold types.

 

I agree with both of you. I'm sure they're fascinating for those folks who are interested in that time period, but the designs and history don't move me.

 

7th century just sucks for coin quality. All Byzantine collectors know that. Please do not think that century is representative of all Byzantine coins. Here is a link to a presentation I made for my ancient coin club on Anonymous bronzes. You might like these a little more, and they are very affordable in lower grades.

http://media.wix.com/ugd/e7a338_d898ad37fc6444d6a6cde1b2c18beacc.pdf

 

i have a constantine x like C7's middle coin, it was one of my first byzantine coins.





sorry for the pictures.

i enjoy byzantine coins about as much as anything, but i totally get why some people aren't in to them. no beauty contest winners in this era anyway, and limited stuff: christ, mary, emperor and or family, maybe a saint..that's about it.

 

Disagreements are what makes a horse race. I agree most are low-art to crude compared to Roman or Greek but the history is as wild and woolly as it gets. People who can't stand the bronzes sometimes can tolerate the gold. They are still crude compared to earlier issues but they are not as bad as the bronzes.

 

People often say that Byzantines are crudes compare to the Greeks and Western-Roman ones. Even David Sear himself says so. However personally I think I see just as much crude Greek or Roman as Byzatines one when I see the other debaters’ coins here in Cointalk. Or when I search after them in V-coins, ma-shop, or auctions. – I cannot notice that Byzantines are specific more crude, but I am obviously not deep into this.

The first, third and forth are most likely Constans II, which coins(together with Heraclius) tend to be more crude than others.

These examples the OPS are showing are the lowest grades of Byzantines. Each of them most likely costs under 5 Euro.

My low graded lots where I paid around 15-18Euro for each of them (under 2 Euro for each coins):


However, one needs to go up to 15-30 Euro before you can get some readable byzantines or with a clearer portraits/motives, here from a span from the 500CE until 1200CE:

 

*edit*

I heart coins

 

Uhm. I just went to Ma-shop.com and sought after ”Roman Empire” from year 1 until 200CE, and as well Greek from the 500BCE until 100BCE. – With the price range between 15-30 Euro.

Still difficult (for me) to see that Greek or Roman Empire from 1-200CE are less crude and more artistic than Roman Empire 500-1200CE.

But well, I have obviously less trained eyes than you.

 

*rats* ... I waited too long to edit my previous post ...

I'll have to try and re-create it for you ...





=> there ... I tried to get it back for you

Yes, I find it hard to believe that you think the designs are comparable to ancient Greek and Roman designs (but I guess you are free to have your coin-opinion as well)

=> it would be pretty boring if we all thought the same coins were pretty, eh?

 

Yeah, but it can be hard to make high quality coins without all the slaves





Some of the seals are done a lot better than most coins..

 

Nice => are those all seals? (admittedly, they are slightly more attractive than the usual examples ... especially that sweet first example ... yup, kinda yummy ... but not Greek yummy ... maybe Lucy Van Pelt yummy)

 

Yeah, from Dumbarton Oaks seal catalog,
http://www.doaks.org/resources/seals/

 

very cool

 

The crudeness of some of these coins are also attributed to the quality of the coins that are collected as well. There are some really nice coins out there, but the criticism that all Byzantine coins sucks is unwarranted. For instance, the original posters' coins are just poor in quality. Equivalent coins can be obtained with far better quality than those posted.

Of course, there are some coins that are just poorly struck with little or no quality in place. Some of the trachys that can be found are just poor and getting good quality ones is near impossible...

Finally, it is unfair to compare Roman Imperial/Roman Republic coins with Byzantine Coins as the period and circumstance had changed. This is clearly evidence in some Roman coins just prior to the Byzantine period. Even other cultures had similar problems as well (Venice, Bulgaria, Serbia, etc.)

QG

 

The first seal posted by Arnoidoe is awesome.

Looks like one of the dwarves from Peter Jackson's Tolkien movies.

I wish the Byzantines had made coins that detailed.

I still like them. They are inexpensive, have interesting history, and have a certain primitive art feel to them that grows on you. It took me 30 years of collecting to really get interested but it's another enjoyable angle to feed the OCD monster.

John

 

In response to 7C's difficulty, I'll post the analogous coins to help in the identification, starting with Constantine X:

Byzantine Empire: Constantine X Ducas (1059-1067) Æ Follis, Constantinople (Sear-1853; DOC-8)

Obv: +ЄΜΜΑ NOVHΛ; Christ, bearded, standing facing wearing nimbus cross with one pellet in each limb of cross, tunic and mantle; with both hands holds book of Gospels; in field, IC and XC; border of dots
Rev: +KWNTΔΚ ЄVΔΚΑVΓΟ; On right, Constantine X, bearded, standing facing; on left, Eudocia standing facing. They hold between them labarum, the shaft forming a cross and resting on steps. Each wears crown with cross and jeweled robes, and each places one hand on heart. Border of dots.

 

I agree with Herberto and others who noted the original coins are of poor quality. I would not be surprised if in bulk coins like those could be bought at less than $2 each. Find me a Greek coin or a Roman coin at $2 and it will not be very nice either.

There are vast numbers of Byzantine coins in low grade. For some reason collectors buy them when they would not buy a Roman coin in comparable grade. Do you think Roman coins commonly come in better grades? Yes, there are many many high-grade Roman coins, especially from the 3rd and 4th centuries, but there are also vast numbers of really poor Roman coins. Go to small coin shows in England and you will see many tens of thousands of lousy Roman coins. The great majority do not have enough quality to be individually pictured on vcoins. You can buy them by the pound or kilo. I have been to shows in England with cigar-box sized boxes full of very worn sestertii that most collectors would not buy at any price. Few collectors appreciate $2 coins.

So, the point is, if you don't like poor Byzantine bronze, don't buy it. Buy nice Byzantine bronze. One difference between Byzantine copper and Roman copper is that really nice Roman copper is pretty common while really nice Byzantine copper is not. But, there are not so many collectors so if you are willing to pay the price that you would for a nice Roman copper you can get a (not so artisitic, but) remarkably nice Byzantine copper.

Or, maybe you can get interested in Byzantine history and just admit the copper coins are usually pretty ugly coins. Then, with that attitude, the one in much better condition are scarce and, of course, more expensive, but actually very pleasing.

There is no ancient-coin series where coins that cost $2 each in bulk are nice.

 

I too understand why some would not be into Byzantines. Designs aren't as realistic, types aren't as varied, and the era is not shrouded in mythology and fables. But, like @Theodosius, its the history, the distinct yet interesting art style, and its general inexpensiveness that get to me. There are a lot more to choose from, better and worse, than the OPs coins, which definitely arent representative of Byzantine coins in general.

I fail to see the purpose of ranting about Byzantines (or any other types of coins) like Calbrey is doing. I don't collect Indian or Chinese coins, and I have my reasons, but I wouldnt bash them (or those that do like them). Please try to be more mindful in the future Calbrey.

Oh and I'll just leave this here:

 

Wow, that's a gorgeous example, Jango ... hey, there are certainly some very sweet Byzantine examples out there (especially if you pay big bucks), but even the sweetest examples from those dark-centuries seem to pale in comparison when compared against some of the sweet Greek examples ...



... but as always, beauty is definitely in the eye of the beholder, so I totally understand the views of the hardcore Byzantine collectors (bravo for sticking-up for your cool coins!)

Oh, and some of my favourite Greek examples are archaic punches, which certainly aren't exactly high-brow art specimens!! (here is one of my favourite coins, but I'll fully admit that it is probably a Grade-3 level art project)



=> yup, beauty is in the eye of the beholder (ummm, or maybe in the eye of the collector, eh?)

... all ancient coins are awesome!! (including the Charlie Brown-esque Bronze Byzantine Babies)