Was this a "Secret" initial engraving?

Many of you already know that the 1909 VDB cent was controversial due to the prominent appearance of Victor D. Brenner's "VDB" initials. It seems that at least up until then and around that time, designers putting their initials on coins was frowned upon. However, the very first commemorative coin - the Columbian half dollar - absolutely does have one. Yet, it didn't receive much criticism, if any at all.

It seems that the half's designer, George T. Morgan, hid his initial "M" next to the boat's sails. Being a klutz, I missed this several times while researching Columbian proof die markers not too long ago. Maybe other coins of the era have initials and I may have just missed them (I know that the Peace dollar does but that's post-1909). In any case, I don't see why Morgan would need to hide the letter "M" like that if it wasn't a big deal.

Was this a secret initial by Morgan to leave his mark? Did it go completely unnoticed by the Mint, or was it OK'd because it was well concealed?

 

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Very interesting...

 

and Barber's "B" appears on the obverse

 

Barber is a leach and a diminisher in creative and effective coin design. I am thankful that Teddy told him to take a hike.

 

Don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel ;-)

 

Saturday night fun. Chuck Barber is on my similar bad list with Jack Welch, Bob Nardelli, Nancy Pelosi, Michelle Bachmann and the MCCaskey family. They are true diminishers. Barber exploited nepotism.

 

I guess no one would actually know since they've all since passed. But, just checking the IHC, Barbers, and Morgan dollar, there are no initials. Couple that with the criticism of the VDB cent's initials, and the location of the "M", it seems plausible that it was a deliberate attempt by Morgan to leave his mark without anyone knowing (at least until after the coins were struck).

 

iPen, posedt: "I guess no one would actually know since they've all since passed. But, just checking the IHC, Barbers, and Morgan dollar, there are no initials. Couple that with the criticism of the VDB cent's initials, and the location of the "M", it seems plausible that it was a deliberate attempt by Morgan to leave his mark without anyone knowing (at least until after the coins were struck)."

Really?
So Margan snuck his initial on to the die yet Barber's is as plain as day?

 

Spoiler

i hate to point this out, but not only did Morgan leave his initial M on a Morgan Dollar-its actually on BOTH sides of the coin.

 

If I recall (from my reading, was not around at the time) the controversy over the VDB was because, unlike Morgan and Barber, who were employees of the mint, Brenner was a subcontractor specifically paid to design the Lincoln cent based on a bust he had previously sculpted.

 

They designed each side independently, and perhaps later seeing Barber's design on paper, Morgan may have thought it was too bold to put the initials out like that. The scenario is plausible but not conclusive. I do see his initial on the Morgan dollar just like Barber's on the Columbian's obverse, so not sure why he would hide it all of a sudden.

 

Spoiler

I'm a klutz and missed it lol

 

Spoiler

maybe thats Morgans M.O. ? Sort of hiding his initials, as to not take-away from the design? Btw he is 1 of the best imo!!

 

Period article.

 

The Indian Head Cent has Longacre's "L" on the ribbon on the headdress beginning in 1864. Morgan Dollar has an "M" on obverse and reverse. I prefer the engraver's mark either be hidden, or fully written out like the French do.

 

Ah I see - nice article! So it was supposed to be more-or-less concealed by the designers. Barber's initial on the Columbian's obverse is simply just relatively less concealed than Morgan's initial on the reverse.

 

@iPen

Perhaps you need to look at a few more coins - for example, you may wish is start with Barber coins (look on the neck).

As to your question: IMO, THERE ARE SECRET MARKS ON COINS **(just as on banknote printed vintage stamps); however, I don't think any of us really think a designer's initial on a coin is anything out of the ordinary or a "secret."

PS Don't bother to ask ...look very closely and you may find.
PPS Some have been published .
PPPS Look between the "A" of "America" and the "R" of "dollar" on an Iowa commemorative 50c. Never noticed the designer's initials on this coin before I started looking at coins to answer your post. Thanks!

** I believe they were added to a die to help fight counterfeiting.

 

Gobrecht had his name on the 1836 - 39 silver dollars. Longacre's initial appears on the gold dollar starting in 1849, same for the double eagle. It appears on the cent starting in 1864. Morgans initials are on both sides of the dollar starting in 1878. Barbers initial is found on the dime, quarter, and half dollar starting in 1892. Saint-Gaudens initials are on the double eagle starting in 1907. Bella Pratt's initials are on the quarter eagle and half eagle starting in 1908. All of these coins had designers initials before the VDB came out. In fact I think the ONLY production coin that didn't have the designers initial on it in 1909 was the V nickel by William Barber. Hardly evidence that it was frowned upon.

By the way the earliest example of a designer "signing" has work on US coins was John Reich starting in 1807. Not initials, but on half dollar dies he created he had a star punch that had a notch on one of the points. He used a normal punch for the first 12 stars, and the punch with the notched point on the 13th star. Usually oriented so it is on the notched point is the one closest to the rim. Not so much signing the design, which he created, but signing the dies that he made.

There is also some opinion that the design on the drapery clasp on the capped bust coins is a stylized JR.

 

Conder101, posted: "By the way the earliest example of a designer "signing" has work on US coins was John Reich starting in 1807. Not initials, but on half dollar dies he created he had a star punch that had a notch on one of the points. He used a normal punch for the first 12 stars, and the punch with the notched point on the 13th star. Usually oriented so it is on the notched point is the one closest to the rim. Not so much signing the design, which he created, but signing the dies that he made.

There is also some opinion that the design on the drapery clasp on the capped bust coins is a stylized JR."

Where did THIS theory come from? I have seen it stated before. Do you know who came up with this and when?

 

I said the same of Barber in another thread and oh boy the angry mob burned me at the stake. I’m glad that I’m not the only one that KNOWS Barber was only in the coin business at all is because of nepotism!!!!!
Reed.