Viewing ancient coin collectors as criminals!

(q)"Why Don''t You Come Up And See Me Sometime"(u)lol. All really good comments. Not really a numismatic comment but recently I inquired of a big Cleveland museum as what had become of an ancient Egyptian mummy which I first saw there as a kid and then a few years later of a young priest who died at age 18 of a broken leg. I remember it distinctly. They emailed me back to say they didn't know anything about it: 'What did you do with my mummy'? They further said that they didn't keep dead bodies lying around-(even if they were 3000 years old)! Ridiculous. I told them I had read an article that Egypt was 'demanding' return of their 'culturally correct' artifacts. I never did hear back from them.

 

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Right on, Tejas and others!

There's only a few things in life which make me really angry, and the ones mentionable on this forum are: people who drive 2mph on the highway, snow (more upset there) and forces who want to take away our coins.

Per my other hobby, old time radio, generally the worst place one can have them is in archives, where they're either left to rot or never heard. While there are some very good archives, even some who make the audio available to the public (those places should be commended), many don't have the time or the inclination to do anything with the original recordings.

Painting with a broad brush, the original recordings were largely tossed out in the 1950s/60s (or some were eventually sold by the original owners), being perceived as having no value, finding their way into collections, and there's about 100,000+ in collectors' hands. And guess where 99% of OTR research comes from?

Back to the coin topic. Of course no one wants places like the acropolis dug up. We're talking private land. And usually the more poorly run the country is, the more drastic the coin laws. It also only takes one conflict/event/accident and poof, that museum's collection is fini. It worked out real well for Iraq, Syria and Egypt. Just leave or collections alone and hooray for the people who are disobeying unjust laws! (Except for the worst of the worst of the 'looters'.)

My VG Antoninus Pius Drachm isn't shattering the world. Leave me be.

Furthermore, why not rely on the marketplace? The musueums will generally win (or have a good chance) in auctions for really rare or spectacular types.

 

For nerosmyfavorite68(above): off topic. Just thought you might be curious about a recording I acquired of Lucille Fletcher's (Bernard Herrmann's first wife) "SORRY WRONG NUMBER" narrated by a young Agnes Morehead-one of the Orson Welles Mercury players. A collectable I suppose. Also, conducting on the day of "War of the Worlds" was Bernard Herrmann, with Mitch Miller playing oboe and (Star Wars) John Williams father on Timpani.

 

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(Photo from PCGS website)

This is a gorgeous and historic gold coin issued by Iceland commemorating the 1000th anniversary of the adoption of Christianity in Iceland. The obverse depicts a medieval crozier, while the reverse shows the four guardian spirits of the land. Three thousand of these were minted, but because of poor marketing they did not sell that well. 1550 were melted. If you find one today (and good luck with that) you can thank a collector who saved it from the melting pot.

I maintain that without an active trade in numismatics, very few coins of any sort would be purposefully conserved, whether modern or ancient.[/QUOTE]

I heard some years back that some of these were melted but I can't find the source any more. I have two of these Iceland 2000 gold coins and can you tell me where you heard about Iceland melting 1550 of these coins. If you can help me would be great.

 

I agree, there has been a lot of research on hordes that have been found, if every country kept all their artifacts, there would be a lot of lost civilizations that would have been lost.

 

When I was 11, my family moved from California to Texas. Because my father was in the Army, I was able to visit many places I would never have seen otherwise.
Anyway, on our trip, we stopped at the "Painted Desert" where there was a myriad of trees that had petrified and fallen. There were signs everywhere telling visitors not to pick up souvenirs. As you can imagine, as an 11 year old, I didn't think it applied to me, so I picked up a piece of petrified tree the size of a ping pong ball and stuck it in my pocket, never telling any of my family of my theft.
Years later, I found that piece of petrified tree in my drawer and felt guilty because of my theft. I carefully, boxed it up and mailed it to them with my letter of apology. About a month later, I received a box. When I opened it, there was a letter in it thanking me for my "honesty" and the piece of petrified tree.
Somewhere in the many moves the Army shipped my father to, that piece of petrified tree was lost, but the memory remained. It taught me a great lesson of honesty, but it took me 4 years to return the petrified tree.
I am thankful for my father's service in the Army. I was able to visit many places in Europe, the United States, and several other places. I was going through some pictures and I found one that had my sister (10) and me (9) sandwiched to our father on the top of the Leaning Tower of Pisa. Have they straightened the tower or is it still leaning.I went back in 1966 and something was lost in the visit. I guess it was because I was alone.

 

No where is ever the same the second or subsequent visits. New memories perhaps, but never the same meaning as the first.

 

I heard some years back that some of these were melted but I can't find the source any more. I have two of these Iceland 2000 gold coins and can you tell me where you heard about Iceland melting 1550 of these coins. If you can help me would be great.[/QUOTE]

Happy to help.

Private communication 4/19

Good morning Joseph

Out of the 3.000 the bank melted 1.550 pieces - there are no plans as I know of regarding new gold coins.

All the best

Sigurður Helgi Pálmason

Safnvörður | Museum curator

 

Happy to help.

Private communication 4/19

Good morning Joseph

Out of the 3.000 the bank melted 1.550 pieces - there are no plans as I know of regarding new gold coins.

All the best

Sigurður Helgi Pálmason

Safnvörður | Museum curator[/QUOTE]

Thank you for the information . I know Siggi and I guess that is where I got this info from Its been awhile since I last spoke to him. Thanks again

 

The worst meltdown (1933 St. Gaudens Double Eagle) 445,500 where struck. Then FDR had all of them (except two) turned into gold bars. Thankfully, the guy in charge kept an unknown number from melting pot, threw in his own 20s to make up for "saved' coins. In my world, I would have selected the most perfect "1000" examples/ sold them to collectors. The St. Gaudens was way more beautifull then the Iceland coin.

 

Well That guy that saved those 1933 $20 St Gauden double Eagles Committed a crime by stealing those pieces from the mint and should have been put in prison for what he did thus making those double eagles a ugly ass looking coins thus making The Icelandic gold coins way more beautiful because not just that they are legal to own but they are tax exempt . You will never own a 33 but I can own as many as I want of my beautiful gold coins

 

I think this is the absolute best argument for keeping ancient coin collecting legal. I imagine that quite a lot of the bronze coins in museum basements rot away. That’s pretty useless.

In Norway, where I live, coins struck before 1550 AD have to be turned in to the authorities. This is acceptable, as all those coins are a) extremely rare, or b) likely proof of trade between the vikings and foreign nations. (These are usually sassanid dirhems. )

 

He did not steal them, since the govt. was ONLY interested in total weight of coins. He replaced them with Double Eagles he owned. So the State was not cheated. This is why the Langbords should have gotten their 10 coins returned.
So crazy, the Feds where still trying to get their hands on the Farouk coin in 1954, and what? Melt it down for a measely $35 piece of gold, rather then at least auction the coin off for millions. I would say that in a poll/ most would pick the St. Gaudens for its design. Older designs are always nicer.

 

Never expect the government to act logically. It could have collected millions in taxes as these coins changed hands from one auction to another, but a Washington bureaucrat found that he could make a career out of chasing down the collectors who had them.

From what I've read collectors had these 1933 double eagles with no harassment through out the 1930s, but in the early '40s a bureaucrat, whose name shall not clutter my mind, got it in his head to chase them down. With the millions of dollars needed for World War II and the bigger fish to fry, this clown made a project out this for a few ounces of gold to add to Fort Knox.

 

One thing that gets me about these museums and countries who harass collectors is, What is the point? You claim you want to spread knowledge and have people learn more about your country, history and culture. That is what many collectors, including yours truly, does. Some us publish our finding on forums like this or even in magazines. Yet they threaten to take pieces of history from the people who are studying and learning about them.

And what are YOU going to do with the coins? If you don't display them to the public or make them available for study, all you do is put them in a vault for no one to see. With the millions of coins that have survived, why do YOU need to control them all for vault storage? Wake me when you have a decent answer.

 

Man, its nice to hear "common sense"

There was the same stupidity under the Clinton era. A scientist friend of mine/ collected papilio indra kaibabesis larvae in Grand Canyon Nat'l Park. He bred them at home letting them feed on their natural food plant. When the pupae hatched into adults, he ended up releasing half of the adults back into their habitat. Kept 20 pairs that were perfect, sold one pair to me. He got busted by F&W in a night raid/ fully armed agents with machine pistols....to arrest a 70 yr old scientist? Eventually they tracked down and confiscated all specimens sold to US collectors. My name was in Dr. Skalski data, so they sent me a letter to send my specimens to them. I told them to take a hike I eventually sold my pair to a Chinese coll. for $3600US. Because of all the BS with bug collecting, I decided to sell them and go full bore into coins. So, we have to protect our hobby from these do-gooders.

 

...you can't go home again...

 

It is not often that governments commission an artist like Saint-Gaudens to design the coinage. President Theodore Roosevelt explicitly requested designs which would be reminiscent of the best of Ancient Greek Coins. The majority of modern US coins are rather pedestrian in design, especially in comparison. In my opinion, this one is a recent exception. Surprisingly, it appears it was a collaborative design produced by 4 mint workers. So far as I can tell, I am the only numismatist who is excited by this coin.

@Iceman57, the Icelandic coin I posted above, in my comment about governments melting their coins, is very beautiful in hand, and you are right to be proud of it. I also own two specimens, and I will buy more if I ever see them for sale for a reasonable price. I do not think the fact that over half the examples were melted is widely known, and the number of coins minted was quite limited. Beauty, scarcity, and historical importance (plus gold) add up to a very desirable coin.