Very unhappy with Naville Numismatics

Yes, I'll participate in an auction (under extreme duress ) if there's an Antinous medallion on offer. For the more common coins, I'm happy to make an offer on eBay, Ma-shops or vcoins. I scored the Basiliscus solidus from a dealer at probably a better price than an auction.

 

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Interesting discussion about stolen art/coins. I think there are some interesting cases with modern U.S. coins - like the 1913 nickel. I'm sure there are collectors our there that don't care that their coin or artwork can never be sold or displayed. Other than the good people here and the lurkers no one sees my collection.

That's kind of sad actually...

 

Completely disagree, Biddr and others are excellent platforms to get a high quality coins at reasonable cost

 

100% agree

 

When you buy on Vcoins you almost guaranteed to overpay by 40-100%

 

That is sometimes true, but not always.

I will negotiate with a dealer on price if I think the price is unreasonable.

I've paid reasonable prices for coins I like at some auctions. Other coins I have seen hammer for much higher than I think is reasonable - eg, a recent CNG where Flavius Victor siliquae hammered at close to $2000 (excluding buyer fees) - while I've seen similar coins in similar condition on vcoins selling for quite a lot less.

I don't like buyer fees, currency conversions and other things that make it unclear what the final price will be. You can make an educated guess, sure, but I'm often surprised after I pay the invoice just how much the real price was!

 

I see, to each its own Greg. I think that a lot of great coins on Vcoins are snatched quickly as soon as they are posted, so I rarely have luck

 

Since this thread has addressed the ethics of keeping / returning coins one did not order, let me post a related query.

Let’s say that I purchase a coin that hasn’t arrived after 6 months. I contact the seller and receive my money back. (I assume that a dealer is insured for these kinds of losses.)

In month 7, lo and behold, the well-traveled coin shows up in my mailbox. What is the legal and ethical thing to do? Are these one and the same?

This scenario happened recently to me on a much smaller time frame. I had my payment for a lost coin refunded, but when the package given up for lost did indeed arrive, I contacted the seller and re-paid for the item since I didn’t want to get something for nothing.

But if the dealer is insured against loss, does that mean that the dealer enjoys the windfall–my payment AND the insurance compensation? Or do dealers then reimburse their insurance provider? Is my assumption about dealers being insured against loss accurate?

 

I'm sure the lawyer(s) on this site can provide better legal information than I, but here's my understanding of your situation.

When you received the refund for the coin, the ownership passed back to the dealer, so you no longer have a claim on the coin. Ethically and legally, you either have to pay for the coin or return it. So you did the right thing.

As for the dealer, if he received an insurance payment for the coin, then the insurance company owns it. The dealer would be obligated to return the insurance payment in this case. It's not clear to me what would happen if the dealer doesn't do this, since if the insurance company owns the coin and if you pay the dealer for the coin, you may not legally own it.

If the coin was modestly valued -- e.g., less than $500 or so -- I doubt that any of the parties involved would pursue the issue very aggressively.

 

The dealer would have to reimburse the insurance company. But I'd expect any insurance to be via the postal system rather than under general insurance. That aligns incentives better. If the person delivering the parcel is insuring it, they have good reason to take care of it. I suspect general insurance covering transit would be uneconomic.

 

@Gavin Richardson

I had something like this happen about a year ago. I ordered a nice Denarius of Marcus Aurelius from Europe. After a couple of months the coin (which was mailed without insurance) did not arrive. The dealer offered me a store credit for the full amount that I had paid for the original coin and I picked something else which had a lower cost then my original coin and told the dealer to keep the difference. The replacement coin arrived in about three weeks and all was well.

About three or four months after all of this a battered and beaten envelope arrived in the mail from Europe and I wondered "what could this be?" Of course it was the Marcus Aurelius Denarius. I contacted the dealer at once and paid him the full price of the replacement coin he had sent, that way he was made whole on both the original and replacement coins.

In this case the coin was mailed without insurance, but if the coin had been insured I would have done the same thing.

 

This entirely depends on the pricing strategy and structure of the auction house. Sure, there are many where the opening bid is above what I would call retail. But when I price my auctions I tend to use CNG as a guideline if at all possible. Whatever the average hammer is for that coin that will be the estimate. Then bidding starts at 60% of that estimate. So, if I get just one bid someone gets a great deal and I likely lost money. It just depends on the seller.

I wouldn't say that is entirely accurate, though there certainly are many over-priced coins out there. One thing many dont realize is that the new crop of dealers the last decade are just retirees selling their collections. As such they may have unrealistic ideas and expectations.

I think this has been answered pretty well, but keep in mind that many dealers will self-insure their shipments, especially for lower value orders. If that is the case the dealer would need the coin back.

 

@Ken Dorney You do make a good point. I've seen auctions hosted by Agora where the company/dealer they were hosting had reasonable opening bidding prices, and I've seen one Agora Auction where the dealer they were hosting set the opening bid at basically 100 - 120% of market price, and a "Buy it Now" button with a price that was probably 150% of market price. Not surprisingly, few people bid or bought from that dealer (mostly just the rarer and higher end pieces).

 

One thing I can say as a general rule is that there is no general rule that is fully accurate. We all differ on what we value highly and consider trash. I never fail to be amazed at what some people ask for trash and sometimes those same people let go for a bit of nothing. It is the game as we play it.

I don't know how many new VCoins dealers are retirees selling their collections but people with unrealistic expectations have been common for a long time and certainly do make up a good number of new dealers whether they are 21 or 71. I once noted a few dealers at a Baltimore show that seemed to be selling nothing. A friend said they were just there for buying and had no intention or interest in selling. Paying table fees would seem to be expensive but when you are not trying to feed the kids on your profits, rules change. It would open up access to people selling Grandpa's coins and the parade of vest pocket dealers walking the floor (some of whom really had unrealistic expectations). I can see how someone might find it a better way to waste a few thousand dollars than taking the grandkids to Disneyworld. It is a question we all face about the time we are my age. Do we try to liquidate before we die or do we stick the kids with an inheritance they will not understand? I'd miss my coins so my heirs will suffer. Do you have a gameplan?

 

As I've gotten to my golden years (yeah, right), I've wrestled with this very question. As of today, the winner is to keep them and let my sons do what they may. I may change my mind tomorrow, but I don't think so.

 

That will teach them. They should have taken Latin in school. Mine will be right there with them. What we need is a mutual assistance society so only the last one standing has to stick it to the kids without help.

 

LOL

 

Some people argue that auctions are higher priced and others argue that vcoins is higher priced. I limit my thoughts to auctions from coin dealers, not eBay, and coins worth $75 or more. Most auctions do not have many coins they think are worth less than $75. If you buy in that range, fixed-price sites and eBay are options. If we were all rational (ha!), I think auctions would be lower priced than coins on vcoins that appear frequently. Here's why.

If buyer's do any research on the "value" of an upcoming lot, for example, by searching vcoins for comparable pieces, there would no reason to bid higher than the coin could be bought fixed-price. (I have seen coins go higher at auction, sometimes by a big factor, but that is what I meant by emphasizing "rational".) That means, if auction fever does not take over, common types will sell for less at auction. Of course, that is including fees (discussed below). If you want an excellent portrait of Macrinus, why would you bid at auction higher than you could buy it for today on vcoins? The exceptions to be considered are for coins that do not appear frequently and for which closely comparable coins are not on vcoins.

Auctions have the advantage for sellers that the coins will be turned into money (probably less money) at some particular time rather than hanging around unsold at higher prices. Fixed price sites have the advantage that if you want something now there are 200,000 coins to choose from and one you want might be there.

I wonder how many of us decide we want some type and are willing to buy the next nice one that comes along, as opposed to waiting for a "good deal" which might take months or years to appear (by which time we might not want it anymore.) The economic scarcity of a given coin type is partly because people want it now. An auction closing in a week or today puts time pressure on the buyers. How many will bid on a scarce coin higher than it would be on vcoins (if they had one) or higher than it would likely be at some other auction within a month, just because it is available now? Vcoins dealers can afford to price coins higher. If it is there now, the buyer need not wait.

Auction coins can go lower because the person who might want the coin the most (i.e. bid highest) is not paying attention that week, or that day, or their budget for the month is used up. Maybe the person who would buy it on vcoins a month from now has not even thought about wanting the type yet. Maybe it will pass under the radar until one gets posted on CoinTalk and demand for it jumps because one or two readers want it (that day, or week).

Vcoins dealers can afford to price coins higher. They can wait until someone wants that type in that condition at that price. Auctions close at a particular time and have, I imagine, far fewer potential buyers paying attention. (I have friends who buy from vcoins and CNG, but don't look further, even when I point out a type they want in some other auction).

At auction the final cost can be surprising. It might be offered in a foreign currency, there are "buyer's fees" and fees for paying with PayPal or credit card and shipping can cost a lot. Here is how I handle that, say, in an auction in British pounds.

Look up the cost of a pound:

http://www.xe.com/currencyconverter/

It is $1.29 today. Buyers fees are, say, 16.5% (a factor of 1.165). PayPal fees are, say, 3.5% (a factor of 1.035). Shipping is, say, 10 pounds.

So, any accepted bid in pounds will cost me

$1.29 (dollars/pound)x1.165x1.035 + shipping = [get your calculator] $1.56/pound + shipping.

Leave aside shipping for a moment. You figure out what it costs in dollars by multiplication (by 1.56). You can figure out what to bid by division (by 1.56). If you are willing to pay, say, $300, you can bid
$300/($1.56/pound))= 192 pounds. Round up or down as suits you and remember the shipping cost.

It always seem to cost a bit more, maybe currency exchange fees, or shipping is more.

Someone mentioned old guys selling off their collections at good prices. They are great sources. Follow those sellers. Nevertheless, as soon as you start buying expensive coins, consider auctions of major firms.

 

Very well considered and well-said .

 

Thats why I have been getting tets lately for $8-$25 max.