VERY strange 2018-P Jim Thorpe dollar minting error

Discussion in 'Error Coins' started by Howard Black, Mar 14, 2019.

  1. Howard Black

    Howard Black Active Member

    tl:dr
     
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  3. Kasia

    Kasia Got my learning hat on

    Bravo!
     
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  4. Howard Black

    Howard Black Active Member

    I'm breaking with my (recent) tradition, and making a rare appearance here (not to be construed as my having ignored anyone; I have indeed read all the comments), because I am 90% certain I've figured out what caused this damage. I do not believe it was gouging by edge die letters sticking and scraping.

    I base this on two things: first, the letters are nice and crisp, with no evidence of having dragged, smeared, scraped, stretched, and so forth.

    Second, I saw a recently posted video (posted by the U.S. Mint), which shows the striking of the new 2019-W quarters.

    In this video (the link "cues you up" to the point just before the operation in question), it shows the vertical striking of the coins at the West Point Mint. The machinery uses two metal plates, each with a (presumably hemispherical) slot. They move together to grab a planchet, then slide it over the anvil die, and then open, releasing the planchet.

    The hammer die then strikes the coin, and another (apparently identical) set of plates move toward each other, grabbing the coin, which is them carried sideways and dropped down the chute.

    The video is best viewed full-screen, at 0.25 normal speed.

    I believe that this coin was processed in a similar machine, in which quarter sized plates were accidentally installed (or not "de-installed" after having done a run of quarters), thus causing the four equidistant gouges -- gouges which underlie perfectly struck lettering.

    If, as I suspect, this is what has occurred, then there were almost certainly more than one such coin produced, most of which were intercepted and directed to the crunch-o-matic coin-wrinkler.

    I say that I am 90% certain (rather than the usual "99%" used by folks who are "nearly" certain), because I do not know if this was indeed the process used for the production of this coin. But, logically (I used to make a living producing working logic), it fits all the known evidence.

    N.B.: "Known evidence" means evidence known by me; and I can with a clear conscience attest to the fact that I am the only one who has seen the full evidence, as I can also attest that the photography does not show the full evidence.

    That said, I make no bones about the reality of this being conjecture. But, as conjecture goes, I think it's pretty good conjecture.

    I will probably call a TPG or two, and ask them if they're familiar with this, and, if it's something they'd grade, or just take my money and tell me to have a nice day. (IMO it will be easier to convey an accurate description verbally/interactively than via either my shoddy images or my shamefacedly prolix endeavors.)

    Just kidding. (Or am I?) [[That's the best I can do in emulating Kirk telling the ship's computer to calculate Pi (or however it was that he put it when I viewed that episode in 1960-something).]]

    <g,d&r>
     
  5. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    Problem is the edge lettering is not applied to the dollar coins at the time of striking They are applied in a second step afterward. The edge die is a disk with a groove in the edge and the raised lettering is in the bottom of that groove. This disk rotates rather quickly and there is either another set of rollers that presses the coin against the edge die. The edge die rotates, the coin rotates, and the pressure rollers rotate. But what happens if the coin sticks and stops rotating? Up until the point where the coin stops rotating the lettering will be applied evenly and clearly. But once it stops, the edge die keeps spinning and each letter makes contact with the coin, but the coin doesn't move, so the letter scrapes a gouge into the edge of the coin. This continues until the coin breaks free and starts rotating again.
     
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  6. Howard Black

    Howard Black Active Member

    You are not describing my coin.

    I have four scraped-out regions. Some of them are where there is no text. Some of them are under cleanly struck text which is punched onto the scrape. (They are thinly scraped at the side of the scooped-out part, the scraping being a gradual process, starting as faint scratching, culminating in a deep gouge, and then an area where scooped-out metal piles up.)

    The cutting is deepest over the copper layer (which is softer), but, extend toward each side, beyond the text area in the center of the rim. The photos do not do justice to the evidence, and when I attempt to detail the problem with the written word I am damned for being too wordy.

    So, this is my final comment on the matter, unless I hear something definitive from a TPG. I know at least one TPG does handle minting mishaps, but I can't remember which TPG it is. (I saw a photo of a slabbed dime from last years reverse silver proof set -- it had finning, and this was on the label (using some other nomenclature), but it was clearly finning.)
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2019
  7. Evan8

    Evan8 A Little Off Center

    Good lord. Send it in already. Both PCGS and NGC do errors. Send it to one of them, they will be happy to take your money.
     
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  8. Kasia

    Kasia Got my learning hat on


    [​IMG]
     
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  9. Oldhoopster

    Oldhoopster It seemed like a good idea at the time.

    You know, you got an opinion from the foremost error dealer in the country (world?). This is who the TPGs ask when they aren't sure. But if you're positive you are correct and a number of experienced numismatists are wrong, send it in. It's your money.
     
    Stevearino likes this.
  10. Howard Black

    Howard Black Active Member

    I said I was not going to reply further, but congratulations, you succeeded in baiting me (unlike the edited who double-posted before you).

    Okeydokey, the Smartest Man in the World gave an opinion on a coin he didn't see, based on photographs that do not show the problem. Huzzah!

    And now I'm unsubscribing from this godawful thread.

    Thank you for your support, etc.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 16, 2019
  11. John Skelton

    John Skelton Morgan man!

    Is he gone? Truly really gone? Or maybe he'll reappear under a different name. I noticed he said in one of his first posts that he had been vilified in other forums, so this isn't anything new to him. I doubt he'll be back once he's shown the truth.
     
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  12. CoinCorgi

    CoinCorgi Derp, derp, derp!

    He's been shown the truth already. If the TPG doesn't agree with him, then he'll just come in here and trash them for being wrong too.
     
  13. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    My comment was based on the images posted in the OP. The first two clearly show the result of a coin that stopped rotating during the edge lettering process. I believe the third does as well but also shows some damage to the rims, probably also resulting for the stopped rotation.

    But by all means send the coin in to a TPG, I won't stop you.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
  14. Fred Weinberg

    Fred Weinberg Well-Known Member

    ".....based on photographs that do not show the problem"

    Gee, I thought we all (including the World's Smartest Man,
    whoever the heck he is) saw the edge of the coins in the
    photos in the first post in this thread....that's what our posts
    are based on - the 'edge problem' the OP was talking about,
    and showing the edges in the photos.
     
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  15. paddyman98

    paddyman98 No Common Cents! Supporter

    Great! You were so very annoying! :troll:
     
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  16. juris klavins

    juris klavins Well-Known Member

    oh-dearie.png
     
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  17. Inspector43

    Inspector43 70 Year Collector

    Wow sounds like you are well versed in the coin world. I wonder why you would post and even consider the opinions of others.
     
  18. thomas mozzillo

    thomas mozzillo Well-Known Member

    After reading their many posts I find @Fred Weinberg and @Conder101 to be very knowledgeable re error coins. Since you seem to disregard their opinions, another expert you can contact is Mike Diamond. He writes articles for Coin World magazine called "Collectors' Clearinghouse: Errors & Varieties" He's under @mikediamond
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2019
  19. Cheech9712

    Cheech9712 Every thing is a guess

    To be safe just post a friggin cat picture.
     
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  20. Cheech9712

    Cheech9712 Every thing is a guess

    Wow. That was cool. But you chose italics as your annoyance at first. That was petty and kinda lame. Like you got a chip on your shoulder with good well rounded writting skills.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2019
    Inspector43 likes this.
  21. Kasia

    Kasia Got my learning hat on


    And? You resort to an ad hominem attack (logical fallacy). Super cute. Not!

    upload_2019-5-18_9-21-18.jpeg
     
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