Very satisfied with ICG

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Owle, Feb 14, 2023.

  1. Pickin and Grinin

    Pickin and Grinin Well-Known Member

    Honestly there are many over graded coins with a CAC sticker. It will be interesting to see some of their slabs.
    Jack D. Young likes this.
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  3. mpcusa

    mpcusa "Official C.T. TROLL SWEEPER"

    its pretty funny when you here all the people complaining about over graded
    coins, isnt that why people send coins in to get graded by the experts...LOL
    a little arm chair quarterbacking if you ask me...LOL
    Owle and imrich like this.
  4. Pickin and Grinin

    Pickin and Grinin Well-Known Member

    It's all good Cusa get used to the overgraded coins in the market, watch out cause you could be the one holding on to them if market grading crashes.
    I would much rather an honestly graded coin.
  5. mpcusa

    mpcusa "Official C.T. TROLL SWEEPER"

    I am a bit confused, why send in your coins for TPG if you dont trust the results ?
  6. imrich

    imrich Supporter! Supporter

    He/others have simply stated that TPG grading standards have significantly deteriorated, possibly affecting many in the future who buy the holder, that may have been improperly "beaned" by CAC because of their assurance that poorly TPG graded coins may now have a terrible average.

    I believe as others that a future CACed coin may be a reflection of past objective standards, possibly improving availability of properly graded coins.

    green18 and mpcusa like this.
  7. mpcusa

    mpcusa "Official C.T. TROLL SWEEPER"

    Is that to say all CACed coins would be graded correctly ? over the top two TPG,S
    I find that hard to believe with all the so called experts in the field, just saying...
  8. imrich

    imrich Supporter! Supporter

    You're being facetious, and with due respect we know, but don't quite understand you speaking in absolutes, when I hadn't even closely inferred same!

    My statement was: "possibly improving availability of properly graded coins."

    As I've previously explained CAC is being criticized for correctly showing coins being at least an average of a "Top Tier" TPGs' improper grading range.

    Their improper current grading range is MS60-67, with the average being <MS64, so a coin meeting MS64+ proper standard, but having a MS66-67 TPG assigned "Market" grade could garner a "bean"/criticism.

    That same scarce date/condition coin could correctly be sent back to CAC, possibly receiving a reasonable new MS65 CAC grade!

    I have multiples of these scarce Gold coins which were incorrectly graded, that may easily sell at 2 grades lower, because of their past limited availability, but new respectable pricing.

    Last edited: Feb 20, 2023
    Pickin and Grinin likes this.
  9. mpcusa

    mpcusa "Official C.T. TROLL SWEEPER"

    I am simply making an observation, if people send in there coins to a TPG
    there doing it for reason, so that a grade can be assigned, who's to say its
    wrong ? you can always resubmit with your concerns...
  10. imrich

    imrich Supporter! Supporter

    To my knowledge, only 1 improper adjudication of coin condition by a TPG has been heard/changed by a court.

    A Case where another TPG representative cajoled the judge to improperly deciding as an yet undefined SCRATCH was present on a subject coin, resulting in an enlarged damage amount.

    There is only 1 accredited published pictorial standard (1977 Copyright) which hasn't been properly voided/replaced by the A.N.A., thus still the legal standard, although expanded!

    Until photo-grade images are shown to be unreliable, and properly documented/accepted by the legal system, only the initiating TPG can change that standard element, LOL!

    All other statements are merely irrelevant opinions/wishes?!

    Last edited: Feb 20, 2023
  11. Owle

    Owle Junior Member

    It is going to be interesting what sorts of guarantees will go with the new cac grading service and whether they will make cash offers for coins that pass their approval. On the cac page one of their faqs once said that coins in NGC or PCGS holders that fail to pass are worth Bluesheet money, or something derogatory like that. In many cases coins that don't get the cac sticker are for minor issues not really problematic in terms of value or pricing.

    On leaving Anacs or Icg certified coins to heirs you had better leave instructions as dealers often take advantage of sellers especially when the coins are not fully marketable, and in their critical analysis claim that non top tier coins are "raw" for valuation purposes and a grade level or two below what the holder says. And dealers buying will go to extremes to find problems, like a market acceptable light scratch or old cleaning. Sellers should always get several opinions and walk out if a buyer starts being rude or dishonest.
  12. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    As a retired coin dealer, I can tell you that you can't survive in that business if you don't know how to grade coins. There are over, under and on the mark graded coins in slabs, and that goes for the products of NGC and PCGS.

    If you think that you can survive as a coin broker buying and selling coins based upon the grades that on the slabs, you will be sadly mistaken. I've seen a couple of dealers who tried to do that, and they were not in business for very long.
    Jack D. Young, numist, imrich and 3 others like this.
  13. mpcusa

    mpcusa "Official C.T. TROLL SWEEPER"

    I am not sure how hard it is to following your own companies guidelines when
    it comes to TPG ? when it is checked over a few times before the grade
    is being assigned especially when someone is paying for your expertise...

    Its like telling a cop how to write the ticket out after you have been pulled
  14. Vess1

    Vess1 CT SP VIP Supporter

    This is an interesting thread. I just purchased a coin in an ICG slab in hopes of cracking it out and crossing over to an NGC slab for the registry. I dont know much about ICG but have has success crossing over in the past. Does anyone know if they're good on catching cleaned vs uncleaned? To me, my purchase looked uncleaned by the photos aided by what looks like some original toning around it.

    I think the grade is right on and likely the highest grade it can get. If anything, if NGC wanted to be hard on it, it could possibly drop a grade but I don't think they will. It'll be a costly down grade if it happens but I'm entertained by testing them and only try it with coins I am very fond of. Like I say I think ICG got the grade right on. I don't think there's any chance it'll upgrade but it's a very attractive example for the series.

    People have a lot of opinions on grading but at some point, what's ever going to be enough? The top TPGs have at least two sets of eyes on a coin, with a third finalizer. Would they get it right if there were 5 or 8 graders reviewing every coin that had to agree?
    The fact that multiple people look at them, albeit maybe using a newer skewed standard, should give it the best possible chance of being correct. Could be some things are missed just due to the time factor. Maybe they don't spend enough time looking at some? But some of this should be overcome by multiple people looking at them that have to agree. If its the system in quesiton leaning towards grade flation, I don't know what you can do for that. Demand drives it. They have no qualms about slapping details labels on just about anything. They have that down pat. Been fooled by whizzed coins myself.
  15. Cheech9712

    Cheech9712 Every thing is a guess

  16. Cheech9712

    Cheech9712 Every thing is a guess

    Yeah but
  17. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    Making general statements about whether a coin will cross grading services in the same grade or go up or down is impossible. Each case is different. Some “third world” grading services are a joke. Virtually all of their coins are over graded and would never pass the muster.

    ICG is not in that class, but from my observations, its grade tends to be a littler more generous than the two leading services. There are ICG coins that are graded “on the money,” but unless you know how to grade coins yourself, you can’t tell the difference before hand.

    All grading services make mistakes both ways. Some collectors will dispute it because they think the services hire perfect experts. The truth is there are “A”, “B” and “C” level coins in all grades, and is where CAC comes in. But CAC is not perfect either.

    Confused? That’s one of the reasons why making money with coins is not easy, at least if you plan on doing it with short holding times.
    imrich likes this.
  18. Vess1

    Vess1 CT SP VIP Supporter

    Yeah, IME sending anything in seems like a roll of the dice. I believe and am hopeful it will cross. You can think you have it figured out and then they notice something you didn't. As long as it straight grades is all I care. If it downgrades, it'll be an expensive lesson. Fairly unique example for the grade so is worth it to me.
    I'm in total agreement with the A,B,C assessment. Have seen it a lot. I believe it takes many more hours of evaluating coins than many collectors commit to it in order to notice it. Color, strike, luster/no luster, staining, spots, marks, abrasions, and overall eye appeal, all play a roll in it, even if allowable for the grade. But the prices will all be the same. If it's an A its usually above price guide values without needing a + designtation. And if you aren't willing to pay, they don't care.

    I've seen ICG slabs noting cleaned coins, I was just wondering if anybody thought they were as good at catching cleaned coins as the leading services, if anybody would even know or had an opinion.
  19. mpcusa

    mpcusa "Official C.T. TROLL SWEEPER"

    Its been my experience at least on the currency side pertaining to TPG cross over
    PCGS and PMG will usually cross over with out any problem, but when you go down
    the ladder on TPG 9 out of 10 times this will not be the case and I have crossed
    over several hundred notes, its all about grading standards, I am sure that PCGS
    and NGC have stricter standards.
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