Featured Verdigris....Make your own solution to eliminate this ugly corrosion

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by Greg Clark, Nov 9, 2016.

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  1. Yes, very much

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  2. Yes, somewhat

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  1. SuperDave

    SuperDave Free the Cartwheels!

    Can you elucidate the differences?
     
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  3. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    My bottle of VerdiCare came with a set of instructions. In the interest of educating all of us who have VerdiCare, perhaps @BadThad can address these quotes from those instructions while we are discussing the product.

    From the instructions:

    1. "...(Not recommended for proof coins)." Why is that? After the product is removed per instructions, does the "protectant" cloud the coin's mirror surface?

    I am waiting to get a "junk" Proof to see what happens.

    2. This troubles me: While soaking the coin, "DO NOT ALLOW THE SOLUTION TO EVAPORATE [on the coin]." WHY IS THAT?
    What happens if I let the product evaporate on the coin?

    We are warned not to over-expose the coin to the solution for a long period of time or the PATINA may be affected.


    One thing I don't agree on is found in the "Debris Remover" section. Placing a coin on anything soft that is covered with the product and then moving it around to remove debris is GUARANTEED to hairline your coin sooner or later as the debris particles are moved across its surface. This is NO WAY to conserve a coin.
     
  4. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    Yes, please!:nailbiting:
     
  5. Greg Clark

    Greg Clark Member

    I never did a chemical analysis of either VerdiCare or Verdigone. I did a simple litmus test and they are a base which is imperative to combat the acidic nature of verdigris.

    I didn't start this thread in order to step on anybodies toes. I thought coin collectors would benefit from a PROVEN way to combat this problem. Proven, you say? Yes....it's chemistry, which is not in dispute, and is proven with a fairly simple formula and the resulting reaction which changes the state of the verdigris. It's proven in the class room and in the lab.

    I posted this to share it's ease of production and same for use. With a box of baking soda, a box of washing soda and a few gallons of distilled water you can quickly produce enough solution to treat many thousands of coins for this problem.
    I'm not here to debate the differences of this with other solutions.

    If you want to try it....go ahead.....don't want to.....don't.
    For those of you who try it....You will be the better for the experience.
     
  6. kaosleeroy108

    kaosleeroy108 The Mahayana Tea Shop & hobby center

    Baking soda and distilled apple vinegar

    From the hobby center and think tank of MTS.LLC
     
  7. RonSanderson

    RonSanderson Supporter! Supporter

    I am sure you aren't. What you are seeing is just a desire to learn even more. I've seen many posts here and this is enthusiasm, not hostility.
     
    micbraun, Stevearino and Greg Clark like this.
  8. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    @Greg Clark just a quick question, what kind of chemist are you (degree and work) and what kind of collector are you (ancient, modern...).
     
  9. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Fair enough. And yeah, I realized it's not the same as what you are suggesting.
     
  10. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    :D If you stick around for awhile, I think you'll find that there are several members (depending on your personal experience and point of view) around here with feet so big it is virtually impossible not to step on them! Especially when they are quick to stick them out w/o thinking. ;)

    I've been guilty of that :inpain: yet it usually gets worked out in the end. Just as it has on this thread. :angelic:

    I for one WELCOME anything you can post about the chemistry of our hobby.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2016
    Greg Clark likes this.
  11. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    That part I would think would be obvious. Because whatever is on the coin can go into solution when the liquid is applied. And if you then let the liquid evaporate whatever is in solution will still stay right there on the coin.
     
  12. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    :facepalm: Thanks, That makes sense. I've heard of "coin doctors" leaving residue film on coin to hide things.
     
  13. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Heard of it ? I got a hunch you've seen it a lot of times :)
     
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  14. Greg Clark

    Greg Clark Member

    I appreciate the candor and I do realize the problems associated with this type of medium. We can't see a responders body language or facial expressions and it's very easy to take a message the wrong way.

    As for anything else to contribute I will wait until we start getting some feedback from those who try this and see how well it is received.

    I use a method to remove dark unpleasant tones from silver coins with nothing more than an aluminum plate and hot water and baking soda.

    I have also done work with silver and have studied and tested toning. I have a method to produce great tones in just hours and they do not look artificial.
    The process requires reactions of chemicals that produce harmful and even deadly gases if inhaled. If you are interested in this study you can buy a book written by a chemical engineer I know. We met at the Chicago Coin Expo over 20 years ago. He's an avid collector of silver dollars and at the time was a specialist in Carson City coins. I haven't spoke to him for a decade but I'm sure he is still writing and working with coins and improving on the chemistry of preservtion, restoration, cleaning and toning.
    The book is Coin Chemistry by Weimar W. White
    He's much more involved in writing and has written many articles for the Gobrecht Journal, Coin World, COINage as well as other publications.
    I know his work will cover everything I use for silver coins but I do not believe he has written anything for copper. I could be wrong.

    BEWARE: IF YOU ATTEMPT TO PRODUCE HYDROGEN SULFIDE GAS TO TONE SILVER......UNDERSTAND THIS GAS CAN KILL YOU.
     
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  15. Greg Clark

    Greg Clark Member

    3 years of formal and about 10 as a a polymers specialist I've worked for 2 plastics companies and a supplier for GM. I left that industry and pursued my interest in automotive technology and went to GMI and studied electrical engineering.
    I am currently retired.

    I love US coins and their history. I enjoy the early coopers and have just started putting together a set of colonial coppers.
    For silver I have a particular interest in Capped Bust coins. I don't know what it is about them but I just love them and their history. I also love and collect the seated series.

    How about you...
     
    Kentucky likes this.
  16. Greg Clark

    Greg Clark Member

    Actually a proper solution should not dissolve the verdigris but chemically change it.
    The solution of Sodium Sesquicarbonate will change the verdigris into a crystal which will fall off the coin. The crystals may be very small and hard to see but if they do land on the coin they will not stick and there shouldn't be a residue.
     
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  17. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    Later, away from home.
     
  18. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    I have a copy of White's book. I've had some disagreements with his opinion about toning. While he is correct that it is "damage" to a coin's surface, many of those "damaged" coins bring sensational prices. One numismatic columnist has written "tongue-in-cheek" that he would buy all the "beautifully damaged" coins Dr. White could sell him!


    In 2002, I've seen a chemist experiment with TPGS slabs using a fume hood and a sealed bag with that gas. He was testing the permeability of the holders. At the time, the coins in each TPGS slab toned - some more than others.
    Somehow, he got a whiff of the Hydrogen Sulfide and started choking. At the time, I did not realize how dangerous the gas was (even though he warned me before the experiment) until I saw it in action!
     
    Greg Clark likes this.
  19. Greg Clark

    Greg Clark Member

    I completely agree with you. Years ago Weimar and I have had two extended and heated conversations about toning. He used to stop all toning of his coins as he loved (loves) blast white for silver coins. As I stated I have not talked to him in at least 10 years and his feelings about tones may have changed, but considering his stance on it years ago I don't think he has changed that view.

    As for the gas.....YES...you really need to perform these reactions in a glove box to keep safe. You can do it in a different setting but care is needed to avoid the fumes at all cost.
     
  20. Cascade

    Cascade The Blind VAMmer

    Does Weimer White have a brother?

    tumblr_myms4m9fbk1qzpxx1o1_1280.jpg
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2016
    Stevearino likes this.
  21. BooksB4Coins

    BooksB4Coins Newbieus Sempiterna

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