Venturing out of my safe Zone

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by Marshall, Aug 27, 2018.

  1. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    I am quite knowledgeable about early date Large Cents. But I recently ventured out of my area of expertise with this Morgan. I would appreciate any opinions on Grade, toning, VAM or value. I did attempt to identify it by VAM and have tentatively come up with VAM 75A. Confirmation would be appreciated.
    1921 Obverse.jpg 1921 Reverse.jpg 1921 Obverse diagnostics highlighted.jpg 1921 Reverse Disgnostics Highlighted.jpg
     
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  3. toned_morgan

    toned_morgan Toning Lover

    Concerning the grade I would say MS61-MS62. It would help to see it in real life, but with the pictures that's what I think it is. The chest feathers are quite weak, so it's a low grade. I'm not into VAM's either, so can't help you on the VAM for it.
     
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  4. alurid

    alurid Well-Known Member

    Can you post a link to you resource?
     
  5. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    http://vwtest.varslab.com/

    First click the VAMWorld Wiki Home Link, Then Morgans by Date and click 1921, then scroll down to the D2(16 berries) list and you will find the link to VAM 75A.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2018
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  6. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    It came in today. "The toning" turns out to have been a lighting effect. It's pretty close to blast white in hand. It's enough to make me suspect a harsh dip.

    Here is my photo which is darkened for detail.

    18831153817621.jpg 1883115391519.jpg
     
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  7. green18

    green18 Unknown member Sweet on Commemorative Coins Supporter

    Based on the bloody photogs I'd put it '63 but I don't think they're (the photogs) are honest.......
     
  8. green18

    green18 Unknown member Sweet on Commemorative Coins Supporter

    Or maybe they are. What the devil do I know?
     
  9. micbraun

    micbraun coindiccted Supporter

    It sure looks like it was harshly cleaned, there’s no remaining luster. I’d say UNC details. I am not too familiar with ‘21 VAMs, but 75a could be a match.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2018
  10. heavycam.monstervam

    heavycam.monstervam Outlaw Trucker & Coin Hillbilly

    Im thinking its a 75a and its much easier to identify the PUPs in-hand than through photos. It looks as if yours might be a later die state than the one being shown on vamworld. I agree that it looks dipped
     
  11. micbraun

    micbraun coindiccted Supporter

    @Cascade
    Can you confirm the VAM for us pls?
     
  12. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    Now for my other pickup from the same dealer. First his photo and then mine.

    1934-S Obverse.jpg 1934-S Reverse.jpg 18831152729394.jpg
    18831152817976.jpg It is blast white and I've darkened it for detail. I haven't looked for the VAM yet.
     
  13. Cascade

    Cascade The Blind VAMmer

    From the pics it looks like the die break at the star either hasn't developed or isn't developed enough to qualify for 75a so I'll go 75 from the pics.
     
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  14. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    Is there a particular STAR I need to look at? I can do a closeup if I know where the critical die break is located.

    Of course, I'm not in my element with VAMS. I'm used to following dies through their individual lives (Noyes style) as they wear, regardless of whatever the opposite die may be.

    So there is a die progression for the obverse die and a die progression for the reverse die. I suspect this might be difficult if the dies are reground multiple times and then reused.

    My current understanding is that a die stage is considered a progression within a die state from early to late and the die state is a marker which makes it distinct from the prior die state.

    I'm adapting from Breen's Die State terminology that created a new die state each time either the obverse or reverse die changed sufficiently in his opinion on a particular variety rather than each die. That would incorporate some changes which would be considered merely changes of the die stage such as stronger cracks rather than new ones as well as additional markers such as CUDs, clashes and new breaks or significant extension of a prior break.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2018
  15. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    This is a high resolution closeup of the 1st through 4th stars from the date counting clockwise.
    18919856901.jpg
     
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  16. Cascade

    Cascade The Blind VAMmer

    Yup. 75A. The break didnt show well in the previous pics. As to the technical aspects of VAMming vs say the Noyes @messydesk is much better at that stuff than I if he's around.
     
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  17. messydesk

    messydesk Well-Known Member

    In this case, the third left star, with the extra break on it. In general, a simple die crack may be sufficient to identify a die, but a die break can define the variety.
    Generally, this is not tracked the same way, simply because there are so many circumstances where we just don't know the pairings a die was involved in. For some dates, however, we do know this. 1878 has been closely studied long enough that we can follow every die through all its pairings, for example. There are a few others as well. Even in this case, the emphasis is on the die marriage rather than the die itself.
    Die state and die stage are often confused with each other, but they are not interchangeable. It doesn't help that "stage" and "state" only differ by one non-initial letter.

    Die state refers strictly to the state of wear of the die. Early is a new, fresh die, late is an old, worn die. Die stage refers to the progression of some visual feature. Often, early die stages and early die states imply each other, but this is not always true, especially if one die in a pairing has been replaced.

    The easiest demonstration of die stage for Morgan dollars is with the 1888-O VAM 1B "Scarface." The progression of the die break across the obverse has been split up into 11 different stages, from no crack at all to the dramatic crack that goes from the rim at 10:00 through Liberty's hair. The amount of deterioration on the obverse die is such that the die state follows the die stage in this case. The reverse die tells a different story, however. The earliest die stage is also an early die state, but the latest die stage is not really a late die state of the reverse. This reverse could have been used in another marriage later, in which case the early die stage of that marriage would have a middle die state reverse.

    Another thing about die stages is that they usually refer to the die marriage, while the die states refer to the individual dies.

    If you look at CONECA's listings, they also note the die states observed for a die pair of a variety they've cataloged. In many cases you'll see notations when the die opposite the feature of interest has been replaced. This is where you'll also see stuff like "Obverse is LDS, reverse is EDS."

    Neither Breen nor Noyes differentiate between a die state and die stage, but this is likely due to the fact that the coins aren't seen in quantity in high grade, which is what would be needed to treat the two terms differently.
     
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  18. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    Another venture into the world of VAMs. I picked up this 1896-S and believe it is the VAM 1a with the die chip. It appears to have a misshapen S whether from doubling or something else. I'm including a couple of photos showing diagnostics. The thread like line on the cap is too worn to show.

    Confirmation or correction is sought.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Oct 2, 2018
  19. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    Posted because I don't know if you can see my images or not.
    1896-S Obverse.jpg 1896-S Reverse.jpg
     

    Attached Files:

  20. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    Posted because I don't know if you can see my images or not.
    181026452425.jpg 181027437801.jpg 1810274311762.jpg
     
  21. messydesk

    messydesk Well-Known Member

    I agree with VAM 1A.
     
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