Variable Weights of Double Denarius

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by OldGoldGuy, Feb 5, 2015.

  1. OldGoldGuy

    OldGoldGuy Members Only Jacket

    Hey Dark Siders!

    So I believe I have come across a true rarity if only in the planchet weight. I have bought a considerable amount of Gordian III's, Philip I's, and Trajan Decius'. I am going off of those 3 as my sample population because the time frame they ruled is consecutive and should be relatively similar unless one went off the deep end debasing their currency. All of them seem to be within +/- 1.5g of one another. It should be here tomorrow and I will update with pictures.

    But what is the highest weight for a double denarius everyone has come across? And if you can narrow it to the years 200-280AD it would be an even better answer.
     
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  3. Mat

    Mat Ancient Coincoholic

    Ants. of Gordian III's, Philip I's, and Trajan Decius all have inconsistencies. Thats just the way they are. Some weigh 3.4gs and there is some that I have seen weigh up to 6.04g. It doesnt bring any extra value honestly.
     
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  4. OldGoldGuy

    OldGoldGuy Members Only Jacket

    I should have clarified that, and in reading my post I see how you concluded the "added value" part. That's not what I meant. I meant a couple things, but not that, well maybe a little but on the lower end of the spectrum. I meant more along the lines of this; today you can buy a Morgan dollar, and know it is going to weigh "x" grams, give or take 0.2g, which is a tiny portion of the total weight. Tiny. This one I bought is OVER 6.04g. And the funny thing is, I have 2 from the same emperor that if you added together, would still be LESS than this beast.

    Maybe I am crazy, but I bought it strictly because it was in AU condition, I needed that particular reverse, and it is HUMONGOUS. Cant wait to post pics.

    Oh, one other noober question, why do some people call it a "Antoninianus" but it is labeled as a "Double Denarius" by NGC? Is this just half a dozen or 6 of another kind of thing?
     
  5. Mat

    Mat Ancient Coincoholic

    The coin was introduced by Emperor Caracalla. Us collectors over the centuries named it after him since we have no idea what the romans called it.

    You can read more about the coin, weights and such at the link below.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoninianus
     
  6. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    The majority of Roman coins were produced on what is termed 'al marco' standards. That means that a certain number were made from a certain weight of metal. It was a lot less important to them that every coin was exactly the same weight as every other coin. Obviously that was the goal but I'm sure some workers were more skilled at pouring blanks accurately than were others. There are also antoniniani overstruck on earlier coins (usually Severan denarii) so it is possible that a variant coin might have started as a foreign silver and was struck to make it spendable without melting. There is much evidence that the mint of the period in question did not take weights as seriously as 21st century collectors would like.
     
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  7. OldGoldGuy

    OldGoldGuy Members Only Jacket

    Very cool. Thank you.
     
  8. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    The other day I was making cornbread and poured batter into 12 muffin cups. I only own 12 cups so when I was finished pouring and had a little batter left, I added some to the ones that seemed underfilled making them, now, the ones that were overfilled. This is an example of 'al marco' baking. I could have licked the bowl but management (my wife) would not have approved of my skimming bullion (I mean batter) and might have bitten my head off (mint officials may have severed heads in other manners).

    Seriously, I get a kick out of the US mint giving weights of coins to three decimal places. Just try calibrating your .01g scale using 5.000g nickels and you will discover that many are good to a tenth not a thousanth. Considering the scales available to the ancients, I believe it is amazing just how close many of the coins are to the theoretical norm.
     
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  9. Cucumbor

    Cucumbor Well-Known Member

    My heaviest Gordian III antoninianus is 6.95 gr....if that helps answering your question O2G

    [​IMG]
    Gordian III, Antoninianus Rome mint AD 243
    IMP GORDIANVS PIVS FEL AVG, radiate, draped and cuirassed bust right, seen from behind
    SECVRITAS PERPETUA, Securitas standing left, holding scepter and resting on column
    6,95 gr, 25 mm
    Ref : RIC #153, RCV #8661, Cohen #336

    Q
     
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  10. Ardatirion

    Ardatirion Où est mon poisson

    This is an excellent analogy that I will undoubtedly steal in the future. Brilliant.
     
    randygeki likes this.
  11. OldGoldGuy

    OldGoldGuy Members Only Jacket

    Double ditto
     
  12. OldGoldGuy

    OldGoldGuy Members Only Jacket

    A beauty. Is it raw or in a coffin if I may ask?
     
  13. randygeki

    randygeki Coin Collector

    :D Yes,great analogy !
     
  14. Seller's picture? Personally, I would pay more for a generic 6 gram Gordian than a generic 3 gram Gordian.

    Did you pay a higher premium due to weight?
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2015
  15. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    I'd even pay several times as much for that 6.95g coin as for one without those boardwalk margins and full strike. A coin that broad with 'normal' weight would be weakly struck on the high points like this Numerian.
    rx3140bb1400.jpg
    I did once pay extra for a 5.8g Postumus but it is just thick, not broad. Extra metal makes a good strike easier and well struck coins are worth more than 'business' strikes.
    rx1860bb1785.jpg
    I'm a cheapskate. Imagine what normal people would pay for that coin!
     
  16. Cucumbor

    Cucumbor Well-Known Member

    Raw, of course, no coin go through the doorway in a coffin here !

    Q
     
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  17. Cucumbor

    Cucumbor Well-Known Member

    Probably a bit of a premium, I don't remember exactly. That wasn't the point anyway, I liked the coin :happy:

    Q
     
    TIF likes this.
  18. stevex6

    stevex6 Random Mayhem

    pontosd.jpg pontosc.jpg

    => yah, I like 'em when they have extra junk (big flans) ..... this looks like one of Doug's "last muffin" examples => they filled 'er up and then kept-on adding the extra goop until the mixing-bowl was completely empty!!
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2015
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  19. OldGoldGuy

    OldGoldGuy Members Only Jacket

    Doug, you seem to be the one who could provide a quick answer on this; were the "planchets" of this general era we are discussing (gordian, philip, trajan) round and roughly 99% of the final shape before striking, or did they just hammer a red hot ball shaped hunk of semi precious metal that weighed roughly 3.00g?
     
  20. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    My understanding is that they were roughly the shape of the coins. There were Greeks much earlier that were started from round balls but Romans had prepared flans. I regret not having a link or reference to back this up so what I say here is only the impression I have from the years without evidence. Please remember that times changed and so did technology so the way flans were made for Antoninus Pius was not necessarily the way they were made for Trajan Decius. A technical study of mint techniques would be entirely from reverse engineering since there are no written records to the best of my knowledge.
     
  21. OldGoldGuy

    OldGoldGuy Members Only Jacket

    Works for me.
     
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