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<p>[QUOTE="EWC3, post: 3715322, member: 93416"]Many thanks – an interesting idea to play with. A lot of things here I am unsure about. As I recall the Zanj was a rebellion of black slaves, but I think it was defeated? So do we know import of Black slaves stopped after that? Do we know that Arab trade with Africa slowed during 800-1,000 AD?</p><p><br /></p><p>Anyhow, we agree that a lot of the silver going north would be in trade for slaves. Actually, wearing a different hat, I know that Ireland is covered with souterrains from the Viking period, and I feel sure these were slave raid shelters. I never discovered the likely destination of those slaves.</p><p><br /></p><p>However I would defend my point by pointing at what happened to coinage within Islam. Islam was surely moving away from a market economy. Copper coin went first, by about 800 AD as I recall Then there is a long pause with silver issue, which seems to coincide with the first flush of silver coin to Scandinavia. When silver coin reappears in Islam it is no longer circulating by count but only by weight. So again, only for bigger payments, not so much for retail trade. After that a lot of the silver coin is newly minted Saminid stuff. Looks like a lot of it was struck specifically to export to Scandinavia. Finally after c 1000 AD (for the area west of Afghanistan) silver coin issue stops in Islam.</p><p><br /></p><p>This cannot to my mind be a routine trade thing. If demand for coin was constant in Islam, and you started to ship some of the coin out in trade, demand for what remained would go up. If we try to stick with the export for trade model, and keep internal demand for coin constant, the internal price of coin heads to infinity as it is shipped out and internal remaining supply headed for zero. A lot of historians seem to turn a blind eye to that.</p><p><br /></p><p>Actually, in practice it would be be absurd, and we more or less know the routine trade model is not what happened. We understand this from the Afghan experience. What was going on was military leaders were carving out estates for themselves, and pushing their tenants into serfdom. Serfs do not need coins. We know this from the Ghaznavids, who specifically boosted silver coin issues around 1000AD in order to pay soldiers in cash, specifically saying it was to block them seeking to bail out from central control and set themselves up as independent landed aristocrats.</p><p><br /></p><p>States run by taxes on market economies need coins. Military states run as serfdoms do not need coins, they need foreign soldiers to police the local population. I judge that was what swapping the silver for slaves was mostly about - slaves to train as soldiers in a different kind of economy altogether.</p><p><br /></p><p>Rob T[/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>
[QUOTE="EWC3, post: 3715322, member: 93416"]Many thanks – an interesting idea to play with. A lot of things here I am unsure about. As I recall the Zanj was a rebellion of black slaves, but I think it was defeated? So do we know import of Black slaves stopped after that? Do we know that Arab trade with Africa slowed during 800-1,000 AD? Anyhow, we agree that a lot of the silver going north would be in trade for slaves. Actually, wearing a different hat, I know that Ireland is covered with souterrains from the Viking period, and I feel sure these were slave raid shelters. I never discovered the likely destination of those slaves. However I would defend my point by pointing at what happened to coinage within Islam. Islam was surely moving away from a market economy. Copper coin went first, by about 800 AD as I recall Then there is a long pause with silver issue, which seems to coincide with the first flush of silver coin to Scandinavia. When silver coin reappears in Islam it is no longer circulating by count but only by weight. So again, only for bigger payments, not so much for retail trade. After that a lot of the silver coin is newly minted Saminid stuff. Looks like a lot of it was struck specifically to export to Scandinavia. Finally after c 1000 AD (for the area west of Afghanistan) silver coin issue stops in Islam. This cannot to my mind be a routine trade thing. If demand for coin was constant in Islam, and you started to ship some of the coin out in trade, demand for what remained would go up. If we try to stick with the export for trade model, and keep internal demand for coin constant, the internal price of coin heads to infinity as it is shipped out and internal remaining supply headed for zero. A lot of historians seem to turn a blind eye to that. Actually, in practice it would be be absurd, and we more or less know the routine trade model is not what happened. We understand this from the Afghan experience. What was going on was military leaders were carving out estates for themselves, and pushing their tenants into serfdom. Serfs do not need coins. We know this from the Ghaznavids, who specifically boosted silver coin issues around 1000AD in order to pay soldiers in cash, specifically saying it was to block them seeking to bail out from central control and set themselves up as independent landed aristocrats. States run by taxes on market economies need coins. Military states run as serfdoms do not need coins, they need foreign soldiers to police the local population. I judge that was what swapping the silver for slaves was mostly about - slaves to train as soldiers in a different kind of economy altogether. Rob T[/QUOTE]
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