US source coins, probable “Chinese” manufactured “clones”…

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Jack D. Young, Mar 1, 2018.

  1. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

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    It appears several of the struck fakes we have seen originated from lower cost damaged genuine source examples- apparently the group responsible have above average skills in repairs but little to no numismatic knowledge. Many of the resulting “varieties” can be identified through impossible die pairings and/ or die states (several of the known examples have had the die breaks “corrected” for some unknown reason).

    Much of the research and images can be found in the Coin Week articles:
    https://coinweek.com/counterfeits/f...per-struck-counterfeits-damaged-source-coins/
    And:
    https://coinweek.com/counterfeits/b...damaged-source-coins-1807-early-dime-friends/

    Of the “varieties” listed I have handled 1 1796 “S-85” large cent, 2 1798 “S-158” large cents, 1 1805 “C-4” half cent, and the apparent source genuine 1854 Huge O quarter.

    Comments and discussion welcomed!
     
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  3. C-B-D

    C-B-D U.S. Type Coins or death! Supporter

    Jack, in my opinion, you and your cohort are quite literally laying the footwork for preserving the hobby. As much talk as there is about the decline in the number of collectors and a dying generation, the real threat is next-level counterfeiting. I do not have the skill to do what you do, but I am so very grateful. Thank you.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2018
  4. ldhair

    ldhair Clean Supporter

    China is a big problem but I think they get the blame for some of the counterfeits done in the US. Thanks for the cool information Jack.
     
    Peter T Davis likes this.
  5. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    Thanks Idhair! In the case of many of these we actually know of several of the source coins purchased by an eBay buyer in China, and the connected group selling many of them from Texas.
     
  6. C-B-D

    C-B-D U.S. Type Coins or death! Supporter

    I hope they are outted and can be charged. The cooperation and co-conspiriting involved is very disturbing.
     
    Jack D. Young likes this.
  7. NSP

    NSP Well-Known Member

    I think I remember stumbling across a thread about the 1854 huge O quarter on another coin website. If I recall correctly, the general consensus of the thread was that the holed coin was plugged and then certified... but according to this it seems they are not the same item. I’ll have to see if I can locate the thread.
     
  8. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    873257398_o.jpg
    Sorry for any confusion; the holed coin was repaired and is certified- I actually own it in a TPG slab. There were several documented struck fakes apparently from this repaired source sold raw on the internet.
     
    NSP likes this.
  9. juris klavins

    juris klavins Well-Known Member

    The older and rarer a coin is, the more incentive there is for counterfeiters to perfect their 'craft' - likewise, the need for education, knowledge and close scrutiny increases - the bad guys are upping their game - collectors should too.
     
    Jack D. Young likes this.
  10. NSP

    NSP Well-Known Member

    It would be interesting if one could determine the chain of owners from when it sold in the NGC holder in April 2014 to when you obtained it (I assume sometime prior to May 2017 when you wrote the article). Someone over that 3 year period had it repaired and used it to make counterfeit versions afterward (not necessarily the same person). A coin can only have so many owners in that time period.

    https://coins.ha.com/itm/seated-qua...age-1-484/a/1204-9248.s?hdnJumpToLot=1x=0&y=0
     
  11. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    1854-o.jpg
    I agree NSP, but obtaining that info is very difficult for the average individual with confidentiality concerns, etc., especially for auctioned coins like this one. I have tried on several of the varieties we have researched with limited success, and then what to do with the information becomes the next issue.

    In the case of the 1854-O specifically we know the "internet" seller of the repaired PCGS slabbed coin and documented a couple of the struck fakes to other connected internet sellers such as this example (the seller was eventually removed from that venue).
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2018
    NSP likes this.
  12. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    I thought I'd post my S-85 purchased 12/16/16 to see if any counterfeit markers might be present. The merchant's name is preserved, but withheld unless needed.) If so, then it is one more piece of the puzzle concerning when the counterfeits might have appeared on the market.

    I tried to post them privately, but the photo function isn't working there.
    upload_2018-3-2_7-37-29.jpeg

    If the markers are all located in worn or damaged areas, then particular concerns arise over lower grade coins which cannot be identified as either original or counterfeit.

    That pretty much describes my collection of low grade rarities (R5s or R6s and an occasional R4+).
     
  13. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    Like you Marshall I don't see the markers, and most of the varieties documented to date are pretty recent (earliest is around 2011) so I think you are safe. Cool example actually- my kind of copper!
     
  14. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    Thought I would post my 1796 "S-85" for comparison...

    19452863_1888967348028968_5586319294208268635_o-combo.jpg
     
    Marshall likes this.
  15. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    No one asked if my 1796 S-85 was genuine or fake!
     
  16. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    I'm unable to tell if it's a fake if they're the well executed ones. It looks real to me.
     
  17. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    1796_S-85atts.jpg
    Fake; from the repaired source coin dies in the article.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
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  18. C-B-D

    C-B-D U.S. Type Coins or death! Supporter

    And is it in a genuine NGC holder?
     
  19. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    Yes.
     
  20. C-B-D

    C-B-D U.S. Type Coins or death! Supporter

    Scary.
     
    Marshall likes this.
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