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<p>[QUOTE="Tom B, post: 1493056, member: 11854"]The pieces look <i>significantly better </i>with the larger images, but the Trade dollar, Draped Bust dollar and 8R still appear to have had mightily manipulated surfaces. Given these newer images, I would not be as worried that they were counterfeits.</p><p><br /></p><p>However, I must point out that there are <i>many, many </i>counterfeits of known US coins that are offered in counterfeit PCGS or counterfeit NGC holders. They are not made as single unit batch runs, but are made primarily in factories based in China that are often equiped with older style mint machinery that is similar to, or of the same model, as had been used by the US Mint. In these factories either high quality counterfeits are prepared from new dies, or counterfeits prepared from using a legitimate coin as a host coin for die production, are made in large numbers. Counterfeit PCGS and counterfeit NGC holders are then used to marry the fake pieces together and then they are sent into the market. Alternatively, data is gleaned from sources such as Heritage where the certification number of each coin is shown in the full slab image of the coin and a fake insert with counterfeit coin is produced. These are found on ebay with an alarming frequency and when found there are many of us who report them directly to PCGS and NGC so that they can interact with ebay and get the auctions pulled.</p><p><br /></p><p>This means that you can have a <i>known, legitimate die marriage </i>of a counterfeit coin and even have it in a counterfeit holder and offered as real. Sometimes, the producers use a known die from one year for the obverse and marry this to a known die for a reverse from a different year. At least in those cases it is easier to determine that the counterfeit is, indeed, a fake. The link below shares many, many images of counterfeit coins <i>and </i>counterfeit NGC and PCGS holders that have been offered for sale on ebay. The link is a flickr page-</p><p><br /></p><p><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/coinforgeryebay/" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/coinforgeryebay/" rel="nofollow">http://www.flickr.com/photos/coinforgeryebay/</a></p><p><br /></p><p>A good way to identify many of these counterfeits is to take the certification number that is listed for the piece and check the PCGS certification database using the following link-</p><p><br /></p><p><a href="http://www.pcgs.com/cert/" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.pcgs.com/cert/" rel="nofollow">http://www.pcgs.com/cert/</a></p><p><br /></p><p>This will not only tell you if the certification number is a valid number, but it will also tell you if the coin has been recorded as having been in a previous auction. If the coin was in a previous auction, then that auction listing can be brought up and you may visually check to make certain that the coin sold at auction by Heritage, Stack's-Bowers, Goldberg's, etc...matches the coin currently offered for sale. Performing these steps has many times been the definitive proof from online images that a piece offered on ebay or elsewhere was actually counterfeit. Below is an example of a fake PCGS holder with fake coin where the legitimate coin was sold in a Heritage auction-</p><p><br /></p><p><a href="http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=740682&highlight_key=y&keyword1=counterfeit&keyword2=1802" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=740682&highlight_key=y&keyword1=counterfeit&keyword2=1802" rel="nofollow">http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=740682&highlight_key=y&keyword1=counterfeit&keyword2=1802</a></p><p><br /></p><p>The next link is from a fake 1802 Draped Bust half that was produced using a copied 1806 reverse die-</p><p><br /></p><p><a href="http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=739229&highlight_key=y&keyword1=counterfeit&keyword2=1802" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=739229&highlight_key=y&keyword1=counterfeit&keyword2=1802" rel="nofollow">http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=739229&highlight_key=y&keyword1=counterfeit&keyword2=1802</a></p><p><br /></p><p>Here is a link for a fake 1801 Draped Bust half that was also produced using a copied 1806 reverse die-</p><p><br /></p><p><a href="http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=840675&highlight_key=y&keyword1=counterfeit&keyword2=1801" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=840675&highlight_key=y&keyword1=counterfeit&keyword2=1801" rel="nofollow">http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=840675&highlight_key=y&keyword1=counterfeit&keyword2=1801</a></p><p><br /></p><p>I don't write all this to scare you. Rather, I write all this to let you know that there are some tools out there at your disposal that might help you while at the same time I am attempting to alert you that there are an enormous number of fakes out there to make you wary. The images you originally shared made the pieces look bad to me, but they might simply be coins that have surface issues.[/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>
[QUOTE="Tom B, post: 1493056, member: 11854"]The pieces look [I]significantly better [/I]with the larger images, but the Trade dollar, Draped Bust dollar and 8R still appear to have had mightily manipulated surfaces. Given these newer images, I would not be as worried that they were counterfeits. However, I must point out that there are [I]many, many [/I]counterfeits of known US coins that are offered in counterfeit PCGS or counterfeit NGC holders. They are not made as single unit batch runs, but are made primarily in factories based in China that are often equiped with older style mint machinery that is similar to, or of the same model, as had been used by the US Mint. In these factories either high quality counterfeits are prepared from new dies, or counterfeits prepared from using a legitimate coin as a host coin for die production, are made in large numbers. Counterfeit PCGS and counterfeit NGC holders are then used to marry the fake pieces together and then they are sent into the market. Alternatively, data is gleaned from sources such as Heritage where the certification number of each coin is shown in the full slab image of the coin and a fake insert with counterfeit coin is produced. These are found on ebay with an alarming frequency and when found there are many of us who report them directly to PCGS and NGC so that they can interact with ebay and get the auctions pulled. This means that you can have a [I]known, legitimate die marriage [/I]of a counterfeit coin and even have it in a counterfeit holder and offered as real. Sometimes, the producers use a known die from one year for the obverse and marry this to a known die for a reverse from a different year. At least in those cases it is easier to determine that the counterfeit is, indeed, a fake. The link below shares many, many images of counterfeit coins [I]and [/I]counterfeit NGC and PCGS holders that have been offered for sale on ebay. The link is a flickr page- [URL]http://www.flickr.com/photos/coinforgeryebay/[/URL] A good way to identify many of these counterfeits is to take the certification number that is listed for the piece and check the PCGS certification database using the following link- [URL]http://www.pcgs.com/cert/[/URL] This will not only tell you if the certification number is a valid number, but it will also tell you if the coin has been recorded as having been in a previous auction. If the coin was in a previous auction, then that auction listing can be brought up and you may visually check to make certain that the coin sold at auction by Heritage, Stack's-Bowers, Goldberg's, etc...matches the coin currently offered for sale. Performing these steps has many times been the definitive proof from online images that a piece offered on ebay or elsewhere was actually counterfeit. Below is an example of a fake PCGS holder with fake coin where the legitimate coin was sold in a Heritage auction- [URL]http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=740682&highlight_key=y&keyword1=counterfeit&keyword2=1802[/URL] The next link is from a fake 1802 Draped Bust half that was produced using a copied 1806 reverse die- [URL]http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=739229&highlight_key=y&keyword1=counterfeit&keyword2=1802[/URL] Here is a link for a fake 1801 Draped Bust half that was also produced using a copied 1806 reverse die- [URL]http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=840675&highlight_key=y&keyword1=counterfeit&keyword2=1801[/URL] I don't write all this to scare you. Rather, I write all this to let you know that there are some tools out there at your disposal that might help you while at the same time I am attempting to alert you that there are an enormous number of fakes out there to make you wary. The images you originally shared made the pieces look bad to me, but they might simply be coins that have surface issues.[/QUOTE]
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