US silver dollar collection

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by heineken, Jul 9, 2012.

  1. thecoinczar

    thecoinczar Member

    You have an excellent type collection there!
     
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  3. ppratt3

    ppratt3 Senior Member

    Very nice set I hope there all real, but the bottom 3 look a little off. I didn't pick up on the seated one until someone posted it. That draped just screams fake to me. Nothing appears to be right. I don't own any, but I sure have picked a few up in may time and lost out on some local coin auctions. The 8 Reales seems off also. I have a few of them but, none of them appear to have that bold of a profile. But like I said I hope there all legit, because they are hard to pick up clean in raw form. I like to handle my coins so slabs just don't do it for me, but there are some coins that slabs are a must.
     
  4. Tom B

    Tom B TomB Everywhere Else

    The Trade dollar, Seated dollar and Draped Bust dollar look mighty funky as does the 8R.
     
  5. heineken

    heineken Member

    WOW...so basically everything worth over its silver value. The seated liberty I know is good to go, it was certified by PGSC. I broke it out of the slab personally. The trade dollar was the one i was most suspicious about, but i don't have enough experience to know, I will get some better pics and see what u guys think. The 8 reales I dod get off ebay, but off a trusted coin seller with all positive feedback (i know that does not guarantee anything) but oh well.
     
  6. Tyler G.

    Tyler G. Active Member

    pgsc?
     
  7. heineken

    heineken Member

    I meant PCGS and the correct term would be "certified, not gradable" I beleive.

    Can you tell what a noob I am to the coin world??? hahah

    Glad I found this forum though, and I hope to learn from all the availble wisdom on here :)
     
  8. doug444

    doug444 STAMPS and POSTCARDS too!

    Would somebody (who KNOWS) tell me if the Chinese are counterfeiting PCGS and NGC holders as well as the coins that go in them? A link or two would be appreciated too.
     
  9. Lon Chaney

    Lon Chaney Well-Known Member

    I've heard about them, but the only link I could find off the top of my head is this.
    From http://www.pcgs.com/articles/detail/7310

    "In the 1960s there was a rash of counterfeits of key rare coins, even rolls of them, such as 1909-S V.D.B. cents, 1916-D, 1932-D and 1932-S quarter dollars. Counterfeits from the Far East are not new. Fake 1804 dollars have been available in Hong Kong for decades. What is new is the tremendous volume of counterfeits coming out of China, the counterfeiting of grading service holders, and the quality of the numismatic counterfeits is much higher than in the past," Hall explained.
     
  10. kookoox10

    kookoox10 ANA #3168546

    Boy, this thread turned ugly quick. I too am questioning the authenticity of the bust, seated and trade pieces. Take some closer pics if you could with a regular point and shoot, and use the close up detail function on your camera, usually a flower designates this.
     
  11. jloring

    jloring Senior Citizen

    Well, I don't think "ugly" is the proper term... it's just some knowledgeable collectors stating their honest opinions, and justifiably so. Questioning the authenticity of any coin, if you feel that it's warranted, is the correct thing to do. I also believe these three to be fake, along with the reales... all are heavily counterfeited, and only good closeup photos can help to prove otherwise. Many of us on CT are skeptics, but prefer being proven wrong!
     
  12. heineken

    heineken Member

    I find it not very plausible bust is fake, i got it from a reputable dealer in a slab, i know slabs can be faked, but come on...

    How about this idea, the bard code and coding on the slab, is there any way to check with PCGS to confirm it is legit??
     
  13. heineken

    heineken Member

    [​IMG]
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    so u guys r gonna tell me that someone faked a bust dollar, and did it with this cracked die variety, and faked the slab and holigram sticker so well it fooled an experienced dealer? and i doubt all that trouble for 1 coin, i would think there would be multiples or else they would not even make money on the fake with all the time and effort that went into it, and at some point it would have been documented somewhere there was a fake in this variety. seams a little far fetched to me, not impossible, but i would be blown away...

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    pic on left is from earlydollars.org
    http://earlydollars.org/coindata.asp?ID=39
     
  14. heineken

    heineken Member

    seated liberty..

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  15. heineken

    heineken Member

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    bring on the bad news, haha, but at least if u guys tell me im screwed and have fakes please tell me how u came to the conclusion...
     
  16. heineken

    heineken Member

  17. jloring

    jloring Senior Citizen

    I'll say one thing, with the large pics the coins look a LOT better (to me at least). I wouldn't be surprised if all were genuine. Thanks for posting the new photos!
     
  18. ppratt3

    ppratt3 Senior Member

    I think I will stick to my guns on the bust and 8R the 8r does look better with a better pic though. Even if that bust is real I hate how PCGS doesn't throw a grade on a coin that old and nice. Come on now that thing has been around for a long time who cares about the rim just put a grade and damaged let the seller and buyer work it out
     
  19. Tom B

    Tom B TomB Everywhere Else

    The pieces look significantly better with the larger images, but the Trade dollar, Draped Bust dollar and 8R still appear to have had mightily manipulated surfaces. Given these newer images, I would not be as worried that they were counterfeits.

    However, I must point out that there are many, many counterfeits of known US coins that are offered in counterfeit PCGS or counterfeit NGC holders. They are not made as single unit batch runs, but are made primarily in factories based in China that are often equiped with older style mint machinery that is similar to, or of the same model, as had been used by the US Mint. In these factories either high quality counterfeits are prepared from new dies, or counterfeits prepared from using a legitimate coin as a host coin for die production, are made in large numbers. Counterfeit PCGS and counterfeit NGC holders are then used to marry the fake pieces together and then they are sent into the market. Alternatively, data is gleaned from sources such as Heritage where the certification number of each coin is shown in the full slab image of the coin and a fake insert with counterfeit coin is produced. These are found on ebay with an alarming frequency and when found there are many of us who report them directly to PCGS and NGC so that they can interact with ebay and get the auctions pulled.

    This means that you can have a known, legitimate die marriage of a counterfeit coin and even have it in a counterfeit holder and offered as real. Sometimes, the producers use a known die from one year for the obverse and marry this to a known die for a reverse from a different year. At least in those cases it is easier to determine that the counterfeit is, indeed, a fake. The link below shares many, many images of counterfeit coins and counterfeit NGC and PCGS holders that have been offered for sale on ebay. The link is a flickr page-

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/coinforgeryebay/

    A good way to identify many of these counterfeits is to take the certification number that is listed for the piece and check the PCGS certification database using the following link-

    http://www.pcgs.com/cert/

    This will not only tell you if the certification number is a valid number, but it will also tell you if the coin has been recorded as having been in a previous auction. If the coin was in a previous auction, then that auction listing can be brought up and you may visually check to make certain that the coin sold at auction by Heritage, Stack's-Bowers, Goldberg's, etc...matches the coin currently offered for sale. Performing these steps has many times been the definitive proof from online images that a piece offered on ebay or elsewhere was actually counterfeit. Below is an example of a fake PCGS holder with fake coin where the legitimate coin was sold in a Heritage auction-

    http://forums.collectors.com/messag...ight_key=y&keyword1=counterfeit&keyword2=1802

    The next link is from a fake 1802 Draped Bust half that was produced using a copied 1806 reverse die-

    http://forums.collectors.com/messag...ight_key=y&keyword1=counterfeit&keyword2=1802

    Here is a link for a fake 1801 Draped Bust half that was also produced using a copied 1806 reverse die-

    http://forums.collectors.com/messag...ight_key=y&keyword1=counterfeit&keyword2=1801

    I don't write all this to scare you. Rather, I write all this to let you know that there are some tools out there at your disposal that might help you while at the same time I am attempting to alert you that there are an enormous number of fakes out there to make you wary. The images you originally shared made the pieces look bad to me, but they might simply be coins that have surface issues.
     
  20. heineken

    heineken Member

    Tom B, WOW GREAT INFO!!! thank you. I checked out the cert number and it checks out, the description matches too. No previous auctions to check image, but I am confident its legit. The reason the bust, seated, trade and 8 reales looks like they have manipulated surfaces is because they do!! :) Like I said before, they are problem coins, and I got them for deep discounts. The bust dollar was polished/cleaned/dipped. The trade dollar was cleaned and later fake toned in bleach. The seated liberty looks like it was most likely polished at some point. The eight reales has significant rim damage, but I did find the overlap that they are supposed to have, and it as well looks like it was fake toned, or the toning was accelerated by some process.


    Pratt3, I agree, I hate how they dont grade it! I would think it is at least fine though. You can stick to your guns, but i am sticking to mine too, I am confident in it. Unless you can tell me a definitive reason, or point out something specific to prove its a fake, then I don't have a reason to think otherwise. The slab does not have any of the warning signs of fake slabs, the cert number checks out and I trust the dealer I got it from. Again, the reason it looks like the surfaces are not original is because it was polished/dipped and re-toned. Ya it sucks, and ya I wish i had a totally original coin, but i dont have the cash to spend on one, and then i would be to scared to hold it in my hands. Come on man, do you know how fun it is to do a coin toss using a bust dollar :) Or even just to hold it and know the history behind it or to wonder how many people in the past settled a bet by flipping it? Its not perfect, and its been improperly messed with, but I love the look of it and it has plenty of details.

    I am also a gun and military collector, which is my true collecting passion, and to me my bust dollar coin is like a situation I run into with guns sometimes. Here is an example - A totally original 1941 6 digit serial number Garand with original barrel, stock with cartouche, all matching parts is FRICKEN SWEET, but your never going to actually shoot it because of the rarity and value. So instead I went with a 6 digit serial number Garand that was heavily used in battle and had a shot out barrel. I refinished it, reparkerized it, put a new barrel and stock on it. Basically took it back to issue condition. Now I have a Garand with AWESOME history, but that is also a great shooter as well. I use it in competitions, and love the distict TING sound it makes when it spits out the clip after the last round :) I made a promise to myself to never own a gun I wasnt willing to shoot. I cant take anything with me when I die, so you can be darn sure I want to hold stuff in my hands and get use and enjoyment out of it while i am here :)

    I am glad that I am getting better feedback now, even though I am sure there will be skeptics. But I do appreciate all the good knowledge and comment guys, thanks to all!!
     
  21. heineken

    heineken Member

    here are a few more that make me :)

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    If you think they are fake I DONT wanna know!! just kidding :) :)
     
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