Unscrupulous dealers

Hands down, this is a tough situation. Nobody wants to be the coin show police, but in this case, I agree that the right thing was done. A coin show is not the same as a person's own shop. I would have a much harder time interjecting if I were in some dealer's shop, and saw a bad deal - but, then again, he would lose my business for good, if it were an out and out rip off like that... so in the long run, the dealer loses money and respect.

At a coin show, however, the dealings are more in the public eye, so you have a little more room to interject, as long as it is polite and responsible - ie, not just to outbid the dealer behind the table.

 

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I agree....but please note the quote I was talking about....

It talks about it as a crime...I was just posting how its not really a crime...to coin collectors yes...it is....but to many it isn't.

Speedy

 

Good for you! You absolutely did a good thing. I hate dealers that take advantage (not just dealers, but anyone) of ingorant sellers, especially the elderly who in many cases are so far removed from what the value could be, and perhaps the most reliant on recieving fair value, that they look like targets for the unscrupulous. I live near a huge retirement home. I have attended many estate sales, and yard sales where they are terrified to put out the coins because they know people will try to rip them off. I often offer to sit down with a grey sheet and a red book and help them understand what they have. I love looking at the coins, so its time well spent, and a little education goes a long way.
Ripping people off on their coins seems to be a standard tactic in many cases for some coin dealers. Sad, but true. Stopping it is a pleasure! Who cares if you ****ed off a dealer. He was just mad because he was about to make a bunch of money at someone elses expense and you stopped him. Too bad.

 

It is actually a crime, I believe. In my business law class we learned that you cannot knowingly purchase an object from someone when you know the value, and they don't, unless they are a specialist in the area. So a cherrypick would be one thing, but what this guy did was another. I can't provide solid evidence of what I am saying though, so perhaps someone can nullify my argument or support it.

 

I wasn't saying you or anyone wasn't telling the whole story...I'm just saying that I've seen a few deals where the dealer has said...if you want this I'll give you think more and $4 for that roll....I've done it...and I've had dealers do it to me....

I there there is a fine line for cherrypicking...we had a nice talk about this on the WINS list a few weeks ago....

Speedy

 

Hey Zane
Take a look at this thread...
http://www.cointalk.org/forums/showthread.php?p=107134#post107134

Now if your teacher is right...then the buyer has the right to sue them because of the fact they got it cheaper than it should have been...do you see my point?...a deal is a deal....people should study their coins...the saying is Buy the book before you BUY or SELL the coin.
Now don't let anyone miss quote me and say I said the dealer in your case was in the right....I don't think he was in the right at all.....

Speedy

 

I am afraid that many of us are therefore guilty of commiting this crime as how often have you bought a coin or other item in a auction or elsewhere for less than its full BV?? and lets also remember that a item is only worth what somone will pay for it. Unfortunatly there are a number of unscrupulous dealers about in all walks of life and at least over here there are no laws to stop them offering what they wish for a item. As I said initialy IMHO you did the right thing.

De Orc :kewl:

 

I went back and re-read and re-read this....and think that I might see something new in it...so in other words....if someone brings me a coin that they want to sell....but don't know anything about coins and I do...I have to tell them the real value before I buy it?....but if the person knows the value and is still offering it for 1/10 of the value I can take it and not say anything....
I think that is right....let me know.

Speedy

 

Business law classes are probably the largest single source of inaccurate and incomplete legal advice on the planet!

Contract law and the law relating to fraud are both very complex, and vary widely from state to state. States Rights are the rule, and federal regulation is the exception in those fields. In fact, most federal regulation of the business marketplace is in the area of consumer protection laws.

That said, the general common law rule prevalent throughout most of the United States is that fraud is only committed when one knowingly or recklessly makes false statements which the other party reasonably relies upon; or withholds information despite a duty to speak, usually arising out of some special relationship. Merely knowing more than your counterparty about the subject of your contract is not fraudulent absent the special relationship which itself forms a reasonable basis for the other party to believe you are providing all relevant information in your possession.

I think I am qualified to make these statements by my 40+ years of practice including a stint as a law school adjunct professor of contract law,

 

It all goes back to what is a "fair" price.

Is the dealer paying $100 per square foot to operate his shop or $20 per square. What are his taxes, fees, regulations, insurance, legal, etc., before he makes the first sale?

How much does it cost for the dealre to hire an employee? After all, if you regulate and tax him to death, why WOULD he hire an additional person?

All these things HAVE to be considered before we slam the dealer for trying to profit. After all, it is the goal of ALL business to generate a profit and collect their money. Otherwise, it is called, "GOING OUT of BUSINESS".

 

Z-Man, do yo happen to have this 1921 Peace Dollar up for sale on Ebay?

Bone

 

I think that makes you qualified : )

 

Oh yeah? Well, I've watched tons of legal dramas on TV and once actually read a novel with a courtroom scene in it.

 

I seen things go both ways. I was in a training class in the late 80's I'd say and was in the Syracuse NY area so attended a coin show on the weekend. I was standing there looking through the dealers stock when an elderly man (Upper 70's maybe 80's) and his teenage grandson came up to the table pulled out a red 2 cent peice and asked what is was worth. The dealer did not have a poker face and just said WOW and called his partner over who had more specialty in the series. They told the man if it graded MS64 if was worth about $1200 and they both agreed it would grade at least MS64. However if it graded MS65 if would worth $10,000+ and they would not make the call and gave him info on how to get it graded by a TPG. They then asked what else he had and he said he had a lot of proof stuff from the 30's, 40's and 50's. They told him first to get a safe deposit box then worry about sending stuff to a TPG.
I told them they changed my opinion of coin dealers and I no longer judge them all by the bad ones out there.

 

If it has a scratch on it it is mine, in the shape of a v.

 

I think we all should send Roy a dollar now to compensate him for providing legal advice. lol I'm just surprised that he didn't ask for compensation.

 

and *I* stayed at a Holiday Inn last night...

 

Sure, but none of that excuses knowingly 'ripping' someone for your gain because they are ignorant. Let's use a car repair shop as an example. The certainly have costs, more fixed costs than a coin dealer. And they deal with something most of us don't understand well. So, how do we all feel when we hear the 20/20 newstory about the old lady charged $200 for parts she does not need? Does anyone feel bad about calling that guy a crook? NO WAY! Coin dealers are no different. In business, you have a right to earn a FAIR profit, and an obligation to do fair and reasonable business. Price gouging is considered illegal in many instances, cheating and lying (even by omission) are considered unsavory business practices. Why does the coin dealer get a break? Because he opened shop in a place he pays more in rent than he can afford? Because his volume does not cover his costs? if those were reasons to allow anyone to rip anyone off knowingly, then imagine what the world would be like! In most retail businesses, a 50% margin (100% mark up) is not out of the ballpark (more for real high end products). So, someone offering $20 or so for $200 worth of stuff is not a rational business practice, but someone trying to rip someone off to make up for other bad business. That unsuspecting coin seller has funded other bad deals, a lack of sustainable business, etc.

 

or he's just greedy and thinks the other person has no real idea of the value in her hands... which is just as likely.

Coin dealers do not get 'breaks'. It's a rough business, but that's no excuse for taking advantage of people. I don't think anyone is defending the guy in this story - just noting that it is not illegal to offer someone a low ball.

If you ask me, legality is overrated - that's my opinion. Something does not have to be criminal in order to be in poor taste or unethical. On the other hand, sometimes laws protect actions that are unethical or unfair.

Business is far less forgiving than the law. It takes more to end up behind bars than it does to end up filing a chapter 13 to save your house. Personally, I find that to be somewhat comforting when I think of people who make their business by taking advantage of people... pretty soon your customers dry up, and your bills don't.