Unknown European silver coin found in Israel

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by VD76, Jun 21, 2021.

  1. VD76

    VD76 Well-Known Member

    I wonder if there is a chance to determine what this coin is ? Found in Israel . Thanks :)

    0.7 gram / 16 mm
    0DF726AB-840D-46A8-93B1-6F435DB4D8AE.jpeg 1B87F944-C933-4F9D-8626-C8189084FB7F.jpeg
     
  2. Avatar

    Guest User Guest



    to hide this ad.
  3. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter 3rd Century Usurper

    Can't discern what it is.
     
  4. +VGO.DVCKS

    +VGO.DVCKS Well-Known Member

    Gotta be medieval ...not that that narrows it down any, especially for the region. Wish I could begin to make sense of the central motif. If the legend to the left is reading vertically, that could be Some help. Some coins of the German states did things like that, along with Byzantines. (--Which it's not.)
     
  5. jfreakofkorn

    jfreakofkorn Well-Known Member

    Cool looking piece tho . . .
     
  6. dltsrq

    dltsrq Grumpy Old Man

    Western European coins not only funded the crusades on a macro scale but travelled with the crusaders as personal funds. There are some western types that are more commonly found in the Holy Land others. Someone will surely know. If I were going to search, I would probably start with French Feudal of the earlier crusader period but that's only a semi-educated guess.
     
    +VGO.DVCKS likes this.
  7. 7Calbrey

    7Calbrey Well-Known Member

    I would also guess as a silver Crusader coin from the kingdom of Jerusalem.
     
  8. +VGO.DVCKS

    +VGO.DVCKS Well-Known Member

    The weird part is that it doesn't resemble any French feudal or crusader type I have any recollection of. But @dltsrq's point is dead on; @seth77 just lately mentioned the profusion of French feudal coins that found their way to, and circulated in, the Crusader states. ...But I can't figure out what the obverse motif is. Even the reverse, with the annulets in each angle of the cross, is uncharacteristic of coins of either series. Why I'm thinking that maybe it's German, Italian, or (politically) a combination of the two. Whatever it is, this is Not among 'the usual suspects' for the milieu.
     
    VD76 likes this.
  9. FitzNigel

    FitzNigel Medievalist Supporter

    The crudeness of the flan, and the thick circle around the cross, strikes me as Norman/Normandy (although they tend to have pellets rather than annulets around the cross…). I’ll try to check Dumas tomorrow to see if the other side matches up to anything
     
    VD76, seth77 and +VGO.DVCKS like this.
  10. Bluntflame

    Bluntflame Well-Known Member

    Looks very German to me for some reason. My knowledge in coins older than the US is pretty fickle tho, so I'm probably wrong.
     
    +VGO.DVCKS likes this.
  11. +VGO.DVCKS

    +VGO.DVCKS Well-Known Member

    @FitzNigel, your first instincts were better; four pellets, Not annulets, are de rigueur for Norman issues, whether late 10th or early 12th century. Had the celators evolved all the way from pellets to annulets, Then, Just Maybe, they'd have been capable of legible legends. To paraphrase Burning Spear, 'Highly-I Unlikely-I.' ...If you're citing Dumas, Fecamp, it's like, Nope, nothing to see here.
    More impressionistically, this is looking more 12th than even 11th century. Along those lines, I'm seconding (....no comment: )@Bluntflame.
    As of now, no one who's posted here has better than an intelligent guess. Since seveal people --at least for any context involving non-Byzantine medievals-- have already done that much, I'm waiting for someone to weigh in who actually has the right (expletive of choice) book.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2021
    VD76 likes this.
  12. CoinJockey73

    CoinJockey73 Well-Known Member Dealer

    VD76 likes this.
  13. seth77

    seth77 Well-Known Member

    The flan also looks like the Norman coins of ca. 1070-1135(?) but I don't recognize the type.
     
    VD76 and +VGO.DVCKS like this.
  14. FitzNigel

    FitzNigel Medievalist Supporter

    Not the fecamp horde, but Dumas, ‘Les Monnaies normandes’ from Revue Numismatique VI - XXI (1979). It does look a little bit like plate XIX no. 15 (which does have annulets), but I’m not entirely convinced.
     
    VD76 and +VGO.DVCKS like this.
  15. +VGO.DVCKS

    +VGO.DVCKS Well-Known Member

    @FitzNigel, Many thanks for that! It would be great to find out what chronological range she's referring to (thank you again, specifically in reference to the annulets).
     
  16. +VGO.DVCKS

    +VGO.DVCKS Well-Known Member

    This morning, I noticed one very similar in the current Zeus auction. Attribution (pasted from the listing): "Crusaders Coins Ar Silver, Circa 1095 - 1271 AD." Golly, Thanks, Zeus.
     
    VD76 likes this.
  17. seth77

    seth77 Well-Known Member

    The Zeus coin has more readable legend

    R | O
    [...] | OM(?)
    [...] | [...]

    And it looks even more like a late Norman coin.
     
    VD76 and +VGO.DVCKS like this.
  18. +VGO.DVCKS

    +VGO.DVCKS Well-Known Member

    ...Thanks, @seth77. Idm still frankly stumped by the annulets vs. pellets. Can you cite anything accessible online for that? ...Only a little more rhetorically, do you think anything approaching a comprehensive cataloguing of 11th-12th-c. Norman coins will be done in our lifetime?
     
  19. seth77

    seth77 Well-Known Member

    I'm sorry but I have no idea. Normandy is rather outside my main interests.
     
  20. FitzNigel

    FitzNigel Medievalist Supporter

    See my above post.

    Seeing the Zeus example, it is DEFINITIVELY Dumas XIX-15. What’s weird, is that Dumas has it pictured upside-down!

    2AC08FE3-C501-4E82-BFB8-5592DD4C9F43.jpeg
     
    VD76 and seth77 like this.
  21. FitzNigel

    FitzNigel Medievalist Supporter

    Although now that I look at it, I’m not sure the Zeus coin and this one are the same…

    edit - never mind. I took another look, and I think they are the same
     
    VD76 likes this.
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page