Unc vs Proof

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by redcent230, May 29, 2017.

  1. redcent230

    redcent230 Well-Known Member

    How do tell the difference between a Proof Morgan and a Unc or (BU) PL or Dcam surface on a Morgan Silver Dollar ??? I have seen pictures of Proof Morgan Silver before, but what if it is AU Proof or Pr 62 ? I mean how can you tell the difference for this coin ?
     
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  3. ldhair

    ldhair Clean Supporter

    I don't know I could tell the difference between a proof and a well struck Morgan. I have looked at very few of these proofs in my life.
     
  4. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Sometimes there are die diagnostics for certain date/mint combinations that can be used to identify the business strikes, and or the Proofs. Other times you might have use the same things you use with any Proof, highest quality of strike, squared rims, better mirrors and frost to tell a Proof from a business strike.

    To get you on the road to understanding that try a simple exercise. Pull up good images of known Proofs and PL/DMPL business strikes of the same date, and of the same or at least close numerical grade, and compare them to each other. You might be surprised at what you can see.
     
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  5. SuperDave

    SuperDave Free the Cartwheels!

    Only with known die markers. And hope the same dies weren't used for Business Strikes. :)

    Yes, if you follow that chain of logic, you'll realize the likelihood that there are many Proofs in Business Strike slabs, and vice versa.
     
  6. redcent230

    redcent230 Well-Known Member

    That is the reason I ask cause I have seen Proof that are low end of the Proof cause of being in circulation. That is why I ask about it. I will get a picture on this Morgan maybe tonight after work.
     
  7. SuperDave

    SuperDave Free the Cartwheels!

    If you've seen enough of each to form a decent database of experience, you can make some pretty solid assumptions based on the rims, strike quality in detailed areas and the like. Not many of us have that much experience, and I'm sure as heck not on that list. :)
     
  8. redcent230

    redcent230 Well-Known Member

    That is the reason I am asking cause like I said in the low end of the Proof that have been in circulation, the coin becomes like a PL you know what I mean .
     
  9. Kirkuleez

    Kirkuleez 80 proof

    Proof is the method of manufacturer and has zero to do with the numerical grade. The CAM and DCAM designations really only give you a clue as to when the coin was struck. The earlier in the dies life, the higher the cameo appearance. It is pretty easy to see the difference after you have handled a few of them. I only have two proof Morgan dollars. This first example is a pretty drab example as Morgan proofs go. This is a PCGS PR-64, but it has very little in the way of color or frost on the devices. It does have the typical razor sharp strike and squared off rims of Morgan proofs. This one was clearly struck late in the life of the dies. Still without certification and die markers, this one would be very tough to call a proof with any certainty.
    1881 PR-64 Morgan obv-horz.jpg

    This 1880 though is also a PCGS PR-64, but it also carries the CAM designation and is a much higher end of the grade. This example was likely a much earlier strike for the die pair. It is not unusual for early proofs to not display a full cameo like modern proofs, the method of creating the dies was far different than today and this should be taken into account. If you see a raw Morgan proof, chances are that it will NOT have frosted devices.
    1880 PR-64 CAM obv-horz.jpg

    Although both coins are PR-64, neither of them show any bag marks. You will likely see fine hairlines on a Morgan proof, the fields don't hide mishandling very well, but you will likely never see any bag marks unless it is an impaired proof. Really, if you found a business strike coin with no bag marks, it would likely be worth more than its proof counterpart.
     
  10. green18

    green18 Unknown member Sweet on Commemorative Coins Supporter

    That '80 is an lovely, lively gal Kirk. :)
     
  11. Kirkuleez

    Kirkuleez 80 proof

    One of my top five favorites.
     
  12. green18

    green18 Unknown member Sweet on Commemorative Coins Supporter

    I notice a little damage on the avatar, Kirk.........Verdidoug?
     
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  13. Kirkuleez

    Kirkuleez 80 proof

    I'm keeping it until I get a new coin for the collection. My budget has been a bit thin since I bought my new house recently.
     
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  14. green18

    green18 Unknown member Sweet on Commemorative Coins Supporter

    Better than a boat.........that's just a hole in the water that you keep throwing money in.
     
  15. redcent230

    redcent230 Well-Known Member

    Nice looking coins
     
  16. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    Just thinking about it as a dilettante coin collector, the most indicative difference I know between proof and business is the 90 degree edge for the proofs, which I assume comes both from the dies and the increased striking pressure.
     
  17. redcent230

    redcent230 Well-Known Member

    IMG_2523.JPG IMG_2520.JPG IMG_2502.JPG IMG_2500.JPG IMG_2498.JPG IMG_2497.JPG IMG_2495.JPG So this Proof or what ?? And if not then is it P IMG_2494.JPG
     
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  18. Kirkuleez

    Kirkuleez 80 proof

    Looks like a business strike. I'd call it MS-63 PL.
     
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  19. Pickin and Grinin

    Pickin and Grinin Well-Known Member

    I may be delving into an area beyond my pay grade, but a PF Morgan should have a distinct square rim. The beads shouldn't penetrate the inner edge.
     
  20. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

  21. Kirkuleez

    Kirkuleez 80 proof

    I should have mentioned that the die marker is a lump on the D in Dollar on the proof version. I believe this same lump is on the 79 dollars as well. There are probably other markers, but that is the easiest to identify, even if circulated.
     
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