Ok here's the scenario. You have for example a great MS Indian quarter eagle. You send it in for grading and low and behold it comes back MS details cleaned. You then carefully look it over again and notice a very nice MS reverse and then there it is. The obverse has slight evidence where it may have been either inadvertently or intentionally been wiped ONE time! The evidence is barely there but yep it's THERE! Ok, ok I know, it's not mint state if it has been "cleaned". My question is shouldn't this coin now be downgraded to Au58 rather than MS details? Is one wipe a cleaning? Any MS coin put into circulation would have received a similar one time wipe by simply dropping it into your pocket on day one. Are not all circulated coins wiped. Hasn't a VF30 been wiped in one's pocket so much that it's lettering is just barely visible? Is an AU58 more desirable than a details coin? I think so. Save the MS details for damages that would keep it from scoring a lower grade. Ie. Whizzed, polished, etc etc Just asking..
@James Robinson AU58 would be wrong because the grading service provides a guarantee. Suppose that they downgraded it to AU58 instead of the MS Details - Cleaned, and the owner sold it as such. The new owner decided that it was under-graded, so he resubmitted it for review. If the grading service refused to give it the bump because it had been cleaned, then they could be on the hook for the AU58 value. Chris
I have wondered if you can take an Unc details lightly cleaned coin, handle it a little bit, and turn it into a nice au58 coin that will now grade non-cleaned. I guess if it was a very light cleaning you probably could.
A month or so in the pocket would do the trick. If you don't mind losing a grade point or two, pockets are a good way to turn a lightly cleaned coin into a righteous one
This works but only on the right coin. They can turn really ugly in a short amount of time. It's a gamble.
Most grades are a measure of wear. MS 60 and up are uncirculated, but not perfect. If its just a wipe mark, its still technically uncirculated. Thus, the grade. Even proofs can be graded under 60, as they sometimes get spent and circulate.
From one new member to another: You used the term "wipe" in your scenario. A wipe in common TPGS terms is a bright patch of parallel hairlines usually caused when a "wheel" gets too close and scores the coin's surface. These are often due to a coin being stuck under the wheel of a counting machine. Wipes can be very detracting when the coin is in the "right" orientation with the light. Wipes differ in appearance from the hairlines evident from an improperly cleaned coin. Cleaning, wipes, etc. may not drop the coin out of the Mint State condition so it is not an AU. However, you can clean a coin down to an actual AU grade. With more abrasion you can turn it into an XF or lower!
Dear jwitten, As a new and ignorant member, I have no idea what your post means. I did push "best answer" because you are a "Well-Known Member" and your post must contain useful information for other long-time users that goes over my head. I'll look forward to reading more pertinent information from you in the future.
I'm a little lost as well - you're showing pretty in-depth understanding for a "newbie." Here's one for you: If a coin is determined to have wheelmarks from a counting machine, it must then by definition be circulated because that's how they get to a counting machine.
SuperDave, I will happily take your bait as it is a good bet that you know more than I. I'll also bet you'll agree with what I write! Here is the short version of my answer: Uncirculated has become a very confusing term. Long ago it implied/described a coin that had the appearance of a newly minted, original piece with no trace of wear. "Mint State" would have been a better choice for numismatics. Let's be honest, when I hold a coin with no trace of wear or even an AU that has been market graded as some Mint State condition (60 on up), I have no clue as to where that coin has been or what has happened to it unless there is some form of physical evidence such as a hole...LOL. I have pulled a FLAWLESS type three gold dollar from a pile of junk, dirt, corroded iron, and debris from a lady's old rotten change purse. That coin circulated. As soon as I pulled it out, it became Uncirculated! It does not matter that the coin with the counting wheel mark also circulated. The TPGS determined that its surface condition met the standards for an MS coin. Then they described the problem. If I remember, the original post said the side of the coin w/o the damage looked nice. PS Do you know what So much Huh?? means?
Gentlemen, the grading standards were established back in the days when the mint did not take such great care with coins. Keeping them in bags for years, and thus, "bag marks" for which Morgans are well known. The grades were estimates of wear, not specifically circulation, with 10 grades of uncirculated, because a coin that's technically uncirculated is not necessarily flawless. There is probably a technical manual for this, detailing what things are considered marks, and what is considered wear.
