Log in or Sign up
Coin Talk
Home
Forums
>
Coin Forums
>
Ancient Coins
>
Two new Roman Egyptian coins: one ex. Dattari, and one possibly unpublished
>
Reply to Thread
Message:
<p>[QUOTE="DonnaML, post: 8276201, member: 110350"]As I've already mentioned, I bought three new Roman Provincial coins, two of them from Egypt (Galba/Roma and Antoninus Pius/Diana) at the recent CNG auction. (See the photos I posted at <a href="https://www.cointalk.com/threads/post-your-latest-ancient.394263/page-4#post-8268326" class="internalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.cointalk.com/threads/post-your-latest-ancient.394263/page-4#post-8268326">https://www.cointalk.com/threads/post-your-latest-ancient.394263/page-4#post-8268326</a>, even though I haven't yet received or written up the coins.) Now, here are two more new Roman Egyptian coins that I haven't yet received; I just bought them at the Naville Numismatics auction yesterday. Perhaps I'm tempting fate by posting about them at length before they arrive, but I have questions about both, so here goes.</p><p><br /></p><p>The first one is a common type, but I thought it looked nice, and it's supposedly from the Dattari Collection:</p><p><br /></p><p> Antoninus Pius, Billon Tetradrachm, Year 6 (142-143 AD), Alexandria, Egypt Mint. Obv. Laureate head right, ΑΝΤⲰΝΙΝΟϹ - ϹƐΒƐVϹƐΒ around (beginning at 1:00) / Rev. Phoenix standing right, crowned with circular nimbus [halo], ΑΙ - ⲰΝ [= Aion, Greek equivalent of Roman Aeternitas, also symbolizing the cyclical nature of “time, the orb or circle encompassing the universe, and the zodiac” (<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aion_(deity)" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aion_(deity)" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aion_(deity)</a>)]; across lower fields, L - Ϛ [Year 6]. 23.5 mm., 12.7 g. Dattari (Savio) 2429 & Pl. 117 (this coin) [Savio, A. ed., <i>Catalogo completo della collezione Dattari Numi Augg. Alexandrini</i> (Trieste, 2007)]; RPC IV.4 Online 13506 (temporary) (see <a href="https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coins/4/13506" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coins/4/13506" rel="nofollow">https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coins/4/13506</a>); Emmett 1419.6; Milne 1734 at p. 42; BMC 16 Alexandria 1004 at p. 117 (rev. ill at Pl. XXVI) [“Phoenix (Numidian crane)”], K&G 35.180 (obv. var., draped), SNG Fr. Alexandrie II 2267 (obv. var., draped). <i>Purchased from Naville Numismatics Auction 72 (27 Mar 2022), Lot 341; ex. Dattari Collection.</i>*</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]1461199[/ATTACH]</p><p>*The phoenix on the reverse of this coin, accompanied by the legend “ΑΙⲰΝ,” clearly relates to the beginning of a new Great Sothic Cycle early in the reign of Antoninus Pius, as most famously reflected in the Zodiac coinage issued in his eighth year. See Classical Numismatic Group, <i>Triton XXI Catalog</i> (“The Giovanni Maria Staffieri Collection of the Coins of Roman Alexandria,” Jan 9. 2018), Lot 124, p. 68 (available at <a href="https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=349280" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=349280" rel="nofollow">https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=349280</a>):</p><p><br /></p><p>“The Great Sothic Cycle was a calendrical cycle based on the heliacal rising in July of the star Sirius (known to the Greeks as Sothis) and lasting approximately 1460 years. According to ancient Egyptian mythology, in a Golden Age, the beginning of the flooding of the Nile coincided exactly with the rising of Sirius, which was reckoned as the New Year. Only once every 1460 years did Sirius rise at exactly the same time. Thus, the coincidence of this along with the concurrent beginning of the flooding of the Nile gave the event major cosmological significance by heralding not just the beginning of a new year, but the beginning of a new eon. This event also was thought to herald the appearance of the phoenix, a mythological bird which was reborn every 500 to 1000 years out of its own ashes. According to one version of the myth, each new phoenix embalmed its old ashes in an egg of myrrh, which it then deposited in the Egyptian city of Heliopolis. So important was the advent of the new Great Sothic Cycle, both to the realignment of the heavens and its signaling of the annual flooding of the Nile, that the Egyptians celebrated it in a five-day festival, which emphasized the important cosmological significance.</p><p><br /></p><p>In the third year of the reign of Antoninus Pius (AD 139/40), a new Great Sothic Cycle began. To mark this event, the mint of Alexandria struck an extensive series of coinage . . ., each related in some astrological way to the reordering of the heavens during the advent of the new Great Sothic Cycle. This celebration would continue throughout Pius’ reign.”</p><p><br /></p><p>My question: Does anyone here have the 2007 edition of Dattari (Savio), and, if so, can they please check Plate 117 for me to see if it in fact depicts the coin I just bought? Thanks!</p><p><br /></p><p>The second coin -- an anonymous "tessera" -- is a real mystery. It seems to be unpublished, given that Naville listed no reference for it and I haven't found it in any of my books, whether BMC Alexandria, K & G, Milne, SNG France, or even Emmett (which lists almost 450 anonymous and/or undated tesserae and obols). Naville listed my new purchase as a second century AD "Tessera" (presumably used as a ticket, token, or game-piece of some kind), although most of the tesserae listed in Emmett and elsewhere seem to be made of lead or even glass, and this one is described as being AE. (Of course, I haven't seen it in person yet, and the photo is rather ambiguous in terms of the material.) On the other hand, at 15.6 mm., it's a bit too small to be an obol. Perhaps it's an anonymous dichalkon, although the flans of those are usually quite ragged and this is perfectly round, with what looks like a raised rim. But it's too small and too early to be a contorniate or even a proto-contorniate, I think.</p><p><br /></p><p>In any event, here's the photo, followed by Naville's description (which I believe contains several misidentifications of the figures depicted), followed by my own description.</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]1461211[/ATTACH]</p><p><br /></p><p>Naville's description is as follows:</p><p><br /></p><p>"Bust of Nilus l.; behind, cornucopia and in front, Hermanubis. Rev. Agathodemon</p><p>holding sistrum standing r. and Canoupus standing facing' in field, A-Λ."</p><p><br /></p><p>I'm no expert, but I do know a little bit about Egyptian iconography. So, (1) I don't think that's Hermanubis (who's supposed to have the head of a jackal and, when he does have a human head, doesn't wear a crown like that); instead, I think it resembles some small figures of a Genius I've seen accompanying the cornucopiae held by Nilus, or, alternatively, given my identification of the reverse figures, perhaps the infant Horus (Harpocrates) wearing a skhent; (2) on the reverse, I think that's a Uraeus cobra on the left rather than an Agathodaemon given the wide hood right below the neck, and that it has a human head, specifically of Isis; (3) I think the other reverse figure is a mummiform Osiris (possibly in the form of a canopus as stated by Naville); and (4) that's certainly just the standard crook and flail held by Osiris, not the letters "A-Λ" in the field.</p><p><br /></p><p>So here's my description:</p><p><br /></p><p>Anonymous, unpublished[?] AE[?] Tessera (or Obol or Dichalkon), 2nd Century AD, Alexandria, Egypt Mint. Obv. Crowned bust of Nilus left, with cornucopiae behind and, in front, Genius? [or Harpocrates/infant Horus wearing skhent crown?], facing left / Rev. On left, Serpent Uraeus [sacred cobra, worn by deities and pharaohs] with female breasts and human head of Isis (as Isis-Thermouthis), crowned with solar disk and horns, standing facing, with coils enfolding sistrum upright to left*; on right, Canopus of Osiris (mummiform?) wearing Atef crown above horns, with arms crossed over chest holding crook and flail.** 15.60 mm., 2.52 g. <i>Purchased from Naville Numismatics Auction 72 (27 Mar 2022), Lot 305; ex. “private British collection.”</i></p><p><br /></p><p>*See <a href="https://rhakotis.com/2017/10/24/isis-thermouthis-snake-goddess/" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://rhakotis.com/2017/10/24/isis-thermouthis-snake-goddess/" rel="nofollow">https://rhakotis.com/2017/10/24/isis-thermouthis-snake-goddess/</a>:</p><p><br /></p><p>“For the Egyptians the cobra signified fecundity, protection and blessing. The cobra goddess was Renenutet. Such associations may be due to the fact that cobras were more visible during the inundation period because their normal habitations would be flooded. They would also kill the rats, who become more common during these months, and who spread disease and eat seeds which had been sown. The cobra goddess’ protective power was probably a result of the fearsome killing power of the snake. Most intriguingly, from an early period Renenutet was associated with control over fortune. During the late period, Isis became associated with Renenutet forming the composite goddess Isis-Thermouthis. . . . Often found in terracotta, Isis-Thermouthis is portrayed as a half woman, half snake. She often wears the attributes of Isis: the cow horns and moon disk (taken from Hathor), the tyet (or Isis knot), the lit torch (taken from Demeter). The most notable thing about this goddess is her body shape. Different statuettes will show her in three broad groups of body shape which are woman from the waist up and snake below, <b>a snake with a woman’s head</b> and a complete snake bearing only the attributes of Isis.” (Emphasis added.)</p><p><br /></p><p>See also <a href="https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/X__2195" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/X__2195" rel="nofollow">https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/X__2195</a>: “During the Roman Period, Isis and Serapis were revered as deities of prosperity. Representations of Isis, with or without Sarapis, represented as cobras or with a cobra body, were popular in Roman Egypt (attested for example in Alexandria, Canopus and Oxyrhynchus) and are usually dated to the 2nd century AD.”</p><p><br /></p><p>As an example of Isis Thermouthis that I think resembles the figure on my "tessera," this figure is at the Royal Ontario Museum:</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]1461225[/ATTACH]</p><p><br /></p><p>And in this sculpture, Isis Thermouthis is on the left with Serapis on the right:</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]1461226[/ATTACH]</p><p><br /></p><p>And here's an obol depicting Isis Thermouthis, posted on Coin Talk by our own [USER=56859]@TIF[/USER] (see <a href="https://www.cointalk.com/threads/show-us-your-alexandrian-tets.362763/page-2#post-4605271" class="internalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.cointalk.com/threads/show-us-your-alexandrian-tets.362763/page-2#post-4605271">https://www.cointalk.com/threads/show-us-your-alexandrian-tets.362763/page-2#post-4605271</a>):</p><p><br /></p><p>Isis-Thermouthis (head and torso of Isis on a serpent's body):</p><p><img src="https://www.cointalk.com/attachments/domitianobol-isisthermouthis-rt-jpg.544938/" class="bbCodeImage wysiwygImage" alt="" unselectable="on" /></p><p><br /></p><p>Note also that Isis is often depicted holding a sistrum; see <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sistrum" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sistrum" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sistrum</a>. For me, that helps confirm my identification.</p><p><br /></p><p>**The crook and flail “were originally the attributes of the deity Osiris that became insignia of pharaonic authority. The shepherd's crook stood for kingship and the flail for the fertility of the land.” (See <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crook_and_flail" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crook_and_flail" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crook_and_flail</a>.)</p><p><br /></p><p>___</p><p><br /></p><p>However, even with a corrected identification, I have still been unable to find any evidence that this piece has been published. If anyone does have Dattari (Savio) (see my question above), Emmett indicates that that book lists a number of additional anonymous tesserae and bronzes. Perhaps it's listed there?</p><p><br /></p><p>In addition to any comments people may have on this piece or the first coin, please post anything you think is appropriate, including your own coins from the Dattari Collection, as well as your own tesserae or otherwise anonymous coins, whether published or unpublished, and whether from Egypt or elsewhere.[/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>
[QUOTE="DonnaML, post: 8276201, member: 110350"]As I've already mentioned, I bought three new Roman Provincial coins, two of them from Egypt (Galba/Roma and Antoninus Pius/Diana) at the recent CNG auction. (See the photos I posted at [URL]https://www.cointalk.com/threads/post-your-latest-ancient.394263/page-4#post-8268326[/URL], even though I haven't yet received or written up the coins.) Now, here are two more new Roman Egyptian coins that I haven't yet received; I just bought them at the Naville Numismatics auction yesterday. Perhaps I'm tempting fate by posting about them at length before they arrive, but I have questions about both, so here goes. The first one is a common type, but I thought it looked nice, and it's supposedly from the Dattari Collection: Antoninus Pius, Billon Tetradrachm, Year 6 (142-143 AD), Alexandria, Egypt Mint. Obv. Laureate head right, ΑΝΤⲰΝΙΝΟϹ - ϹƐΒƐVϹƐΒ around (beginning at 1:00) / Rev. Phoenix standing right, crowned with circular nimbus [halo], ΑΙ - ⲰΝ [= Aion, Greek equivalent of Roman Aeternitas, also symbolizing the cyclical nature of “time, the orb or circle encompassing the universe, and the zodiac” ([URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aion_(deity)[/URL])]; across lower fields, L - Ϛ [Year 6]. 23.5 mm., 12.7 g. Dattari (Savio) 2429 & Pl. 117 (this coin) [Savio, A. ed., [I]Catalogo completo della collezione Dattari Numi Augg. Alexandrini[/I] (Trieste, 2007)]; RPC IV.4 Online 13506 (temporary) (see [URL]https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coins/4/13506[/URL]); Emmett 1419.6; Milne 1734 at p. 42; BMC 16 Alexandria 1004 at p. 117 (rev. ill at Pl. XXVI) [“Phoenix (Numidian crane)”], K&G 35.180 (obv. var., draped), SNG Fr. Alexandrie II 2267 (obv. var., draped). [I]Purchased from Naville Numismatics Auction 72 (27 Mar 2022), Lot 341; ex. Dattari Collection.[/I]* [ATTACH=full]1461199[/ATTACH] *The phoenix on the reverse of this coin, accompanied by the legend “ΑΙⲰΝ,” clearly relates to the beginning of a new Great Sothic Cycle early in the reign of Antoninus Pius, as most famously reflected in the Zodiac coinage issued in his eighth year. See Classical Numismatic Group, [I]Triton XXI Catalog[/I] (“The Giovanni Maria Staffieri Collection of the Coins of Roman Alexandria,” Jan 9. 2018), Lot 124, p. 68 (available at [URL]https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=349280[/URL]): “The Great Sothic Cycle was a calendrical cycle based on the heliacal rising in July of the star Sirius (known to the Greeks as Sothis) and lasting approximately 1460 years. According to ancient Egyptian mythology, in a Golden Age, the beginning of the flooding of the Nile coincided exactly with the rising of Sirius, which was reckoned as the New Year. Only once every 1460 years did Sirius rise at exactly the same time. Thus, the coincidence of this along with the concurrent beginning of the flooding of the Nile gave the event major cosmological significance by heralding not just the beginning of a new year, but the beginning of a new eon. This event also was thought to herald the appearance of the phoenix, a mythological bird which was reborn every 500 to 1000 years out of its own ashes. According to one version of the myth, each new phoenix embalmed its old ashes in an egg of myrrh, which it then deposited in the Egyptian city of Heliopolis. So important was the advent of the new Great Sothic Cycle, both to the realignment of the heavens and its signaling of the annual flooding of the Nile, that the Egyptians celebrated it in a five-day festival, which emphasized the important cosmological significance. In the third year of the reign of Antoninus Pius (AD 139/40), a new Great Sothic Cycle began. To mark this event, the mint of Alexandria struck an extensive series of coinage . . ., each related in some astrological way to the reordering of the heavens during the advent of the new Great Sothic Cycle. This celebration would continue throughout Pius’ reign.” My question: Does anyone here have the 2007 edition of Dattari (Savio), and, if so, can they please check Plate 117 for me to see if it in fact depicts the coin I just bought? Thanks! The second coin -- an anonymous "tessera" -- is a real mystery. It seems to be unpublished, given that Naville listed no reference for it and I haven't found it in any of my books, whether BMC Alexandria, K & G, Milne, SNG France, or even Emmett (which lists almost 450 anonymous and/or undated tesserae and obols). Naville listed my new purchase as a second century AD "Tessera" (presumably used as a ticket, token, or game-piece of some kind), although most of the tesserae listed in Emmett and elsewhere seem to be made of lead or even glass, and this one is described as being AE. (Of course, I haven't seen it in person yet, and the photo is rather ambiguous in terms of the material.) On the other hand, at 15.6 mm., it's a bit too small to be an obol. Perhaps it's an anonymous dichalkon, although the flans of those are usually quite ragged and this is perfectly round, with what looks like a raised rim. But it's too small and too early to be a contorniate or even a proto-contorniate, I think. In any event, here's the photo, followed by Naville's description (which I believe contains several misidentifications of the figures depicted), followed by my own description. [ATTACH=full]1461211[/ATTACH] Naville's description is as follows: "Bust of Nilus l.; behind, cornucopia and in front, Hermanubis. Rev. Agathodemon holding sistrum standing r. and Canoupus standing facing' in field, A-Λ." I'm no expert, but I do know a little bit about Egyptian iconography. So, (1) I don't think that's Hermanubis (who's supposed to have the head of a jackal and, when he does have a human head, doesn't wear a crown like that); instead, I think it resembles some small figures of a Genius I've seen accompanying the cornucopiae held by Nilus, or, alternatively, given my identification of the reverse figures, perhaps the infant Horus (Harpocrates) wearing a skhent; (2) on the reverse, I think that's a Uraeus cobra on the left rather than an Agathodaemon given the wide hood right below the neck, and that it has a human head, specifically of Isis; (3) I think the other reverse figure is a mummiform Osiris (possibly in the form of a canopus as stated by Naville); and (4) that's certainly just the standard crook and flail held by Osiris, not the letters "A-Λ" in the field. So here's my description: Anonymous, unpublished[?] AE[?] Tessera (or Obol or Dichalkon), 2nd Century AD, Alexandria, Egypt Mint. Obv. Crowned bust of Nilus left, with cornucopiae behind and, in front, Genius? [or Harpocrates/infant Horus wearing skhent crown?], facing left / Rev. On left, Serpent Uraeus [sacred cobra, worn by deities and pharaohs] with female breasts and human head of Isis (as Isis-Thermouthis), crowned with solar disk and horns, standing facing, with coils enfolding sistrum upright to left*; on right, Canopus of Osiris (mummiform?) wearing Atef crown above horns, with arms crossed over chest holding crook and flail.** 15.60 mm., 2.52 g. [I]Purchased from Naville Numismatics Auction 72 (27 Mar 2022), Lot 305; ex. “private British collection.”[/I] *See [URL]https://rhakotis.com/2017/10/24/isis-thermouthis-snake-goddess/[/URL]: “For the Egyptians the cobra signified fecundity, protection and blessing. The cobra goddess was Renenutet. Such associations may be due to the fact that cobras were more visible during the inundation period because their normal habitations would be flooded. They would also kill the rats, who become more common during these months, and who spread disease and eat seeds which had been sown. The cobra goddess’ protective power was probably a result of the fearsome killing power of the snake. Most intriguingly, from an early period Renenutet was associated with control over fortune. During the late period, Isis became associated with Renenutet forming the composite goddess Isis-Thermouthis. . . . Often found in terracotta, Isis-Thermouthis is portrayed as a half woman, half snake. She often wears the attributes of Isis: the cow horns and moon disk (taken from Hathor), the tyet (or Isis knot), the lit torch (taken from Demeter). The most notable thing about this goddess is her body shape. Different statuettes will show her in three broad groups of body shape which are woman from the waist up and snake below, [B]a snake with a woman’s head[/B] and a complete snake bearing only the attributes of Isis.” (Emphasis added.) See also [URL]https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/X__2195[/URL]: “During the Roman Period, Isis and Serapis were revered as deities of prosperity. Representations of Isis, with or without Sarapis, represented as cobras or with a cobra body, were popular in Roman Egypt (attested for example in Alexandria, Canopus and Oxyrhynchus) and are usually dated to the 2nd century AD.” As an example of Isis Thermouthis that I think resembles the figure on my "tessera," this figure is at the Royal Ontario Museum: [ATTACH=full]1461225[/ATTACH] And in this sculpture, Isis Thermouthis is on the left with Serapis on the right: [ATTACH=full]1461226[/ATTACH] And here's an obol depicting Isis Thermouthis, posted on Coin Talk by our own [USER=56859]@TIF[/USER] (see [URL]https://www.cointalk.com/threads/show-us-your-alexandrian-tets.362763/page-2#post-4605271[/URL]): Isis-Thermouthis (head and torso of Isis on a serpent's body): [IMG]https://www.cointalk.com/attachments/domitianobol-isisthermouthis-rt-jpg.544938/[/IMG] Note also that Isis is often depicted holding a sistrum; see [URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sistrum[/URL]. For me, that helps confirm my identification. **The crook and flail “were originally the attributes of the deity Osiris that became insignia of pharaonic authority. The shepherd's crook stood for kingship and the flail for the fertility of the land.” (See [URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crook_and_flail[/URL].) ___ However, even with a corrected identification, I have still been unable to find any evidence that this piece has been published. If anyone does have Dattari (Savio) (see my question above), Emmett indicates that that book lists a number of additional anonymous tesserae and bronzes. Perhaps it's listed there? In addition to any comments people may have on this piece or the first coin, please post anything you think is appropriate, including your own coins from the Dattari Collection, as well as your own tesserae or otherwise anonymous coins, whether published or unpublished, and whether from Egypt or elsewhere.[/QUOTE]
Your name or email address:
Do you already have an account?
No, create an account now.
Yes, my password is:
Forgot your password?
Stay logged in
Coin Talk
Home
Forums
>
Coin Forums
>
Ancient Coins
>
Two new Roman Egyptian coins: one ex. Dattari, and one possibly unpublished
>
Home
Home
Quick Links
Search Forums
Recent Activity
Recent Posts
Forums
Forums
Quick Links
Search Forums
Recent Posts
Competitions
Competitions
Quick Links
Competition Index
Rules, Terms & Conditions
Gallery
Gallery
Quick Links
Search Media
New Media
Showcase
Showcase
Quick Links
Search Items
Most Active Members
New Items
Directory
Directory
Quick Links
Directory Home
New Listings
Members
Members
Quick Links
Notable Members
Current Visitors
Recent Activity
New Profile Posts
Sponsors
Menu
Search
Search titles only
Posted by Member:
Separate names with a comma.
Newer Than:
Search this thread only
Search this forum only
Display results as threads
Useful Searches
Recent Posts
More...