Two misattributed Bohemian grossi, Karl IV and Wencezlaus II

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by The Eidolon, Dec 12, 2020.

  1. The Eidolon

    The Eidolon Well-Known Member

    ob.jpg rev.jpg
    Left, sold as Wencezlaus II gross, I think it is Karl IV. 3.02 g, 28 mm
    obverse: "[DEI GRATIA] REX BOEMIE KAROLUS PRIMUS"
    reverse: "GROSSI PRAGENSES"
    1346-1378

    Right, sold as Karl IV, I think it is Wencezlaus II, or likely a later copy. 2.56 g, 23 mm
    obverse: "DEI GRATIA REX BOEMIE WENCEZLAVS SECVNDVS"
    reverse: "GROSSI PRAGENSES"
    1300-1305, if contemporaneous to his reign. 1300-1564 if a later copy.

    I think the righthand coin has been heavily clipped. Supposedly these were issued as under Wencezlaus II throughout Central Europe from 1300-1564. The fineness and weight dropped from 0.933 to about 0.333 and from ~4 to 2 g. I don't think there's any way natural wear could remove that much of the edges while leaving the surface detail mostly intact. My guess is that the earlier, heavier coins were clipped until the silver content was reduced down to the currently available debased standard. Otherwise they wouldn't have survived to stay in circulation and would have been hoarded or melted.
     
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  3. Mojavedave

    Mojavedave Senior Member

    Thank you for posting this article. I recently found out my Grandparents were from Bohemia and these are the first coins I have seen although they were well before my Grandparents time.

    Dave
     
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  4. +VGO.DVCKS

    +VGO.DVCKS Well-Known Member

    Nope, that's Classical, Clinical, Freudian clipping (...cf. 'Transference' in recent political contexts) if I ever saw it. Parallels to English hammered of the 14th-15th-centuries will be unmistakable to anyone who's spent some time with this period.
    ...In other words, from here, your example looks like an original issue of Wencezlaus II, which 'went through the wars' where both clipping and wear were concerned. Given all of which, on an appropriately speculative level, it's in good enough shape for the fine, ostensibly earlier engraving style to be very apparent.
    ...Best you're likely to get from here. It's an easy guess that someone here knows more about this than I ventured to think I did.
     
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  5. The Eidolon

    The Eidolon Well-Known Member

    I'm a bit Czech/Bohemian on both sides, which is one of the reasons I like to look for coins from that region. I posted these before, but perhaps you might enjoy seeing them if you hadn't. A set of Bohemian playing cards brought over in 1875 by my great-grandfather's great grandmother. The set was split among her descendants.
    Bohemian Cards.jpg
     
  6. The Eidolon

    The Eidolon Well-Known Member

    And it's a bit recent for this board, but here is one of my Early Modern Bohemian coins: Bohemia, 1645, 3 Kreuzer, Ferdinand III, Prague Mint
    Bohemia 1645 3 Kreuzer Ferdinand III Prague Mint copy.jpeg

    A lot of coins from this era I find misattributed as Polish or German States.
     
  7. seth77

    seth77 Well-Known Member

    They are similar to the Hungarian playing cards, used usually to play Cross:

    antique-hungarian-european-four_1_9da4dcbc32d71b82ef59d61cc972c70b.jpg
     
  8. +VGO.DVCKS

    +VGO.DVCKS Well-Known Member

    Terrific playing cards and cool family stuff! Liking it a lot. Thanks!
    ...I have to chuckle. One of the most conspicuous things to survive in my family from the same interval are a great (lost track how many) grandfather's sermons, in longhand. Little bit of a contrast....
     
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  9. ominus1

    ominus1 Supporter! Supporter

    ..purdy neat coins...would Wencezlaus ll also be Vladislaus ll?( i believe it is)...i know there are many different names for the same people in diferent ethnic areas ..i have one of him posing here with Diocletian :smuggrin:... Dioclectian   Vladislaus ll 001.JPG Dioclectian   Vladislaus ll 002.JPG
     

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  10. The Eidolon

    The Eidolon Well-Known Member

    I'm not sure, but I don't think so. The most famous Vladislaus ll I could find was a King of Hungary from 1471-1516. Vladislaus = Ulászló.
    There was a Vladislaus II of Bohemia from 1140-1158
    Wencezlaus ll was from 1278-1305. Wencezlaus = Vaclav I think.
     
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  11. The Eidolon

    The Eidolon Well-Known Member

    Funny thing abut Bohemia--people from there were considered dangerous free thinkers, and not quite proper Christians. My great-grandfather used to be taunted as an "atheist" as a child because of his Bohemian heritage. As far as I know they were just garden variety Protestants like most everyone else in that area. Most of my ancestors seem to have been farmers, not preachers, though.
     
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  12. ominus1

    ominus1 Supporter! Supporter

    ..yeah, you are right.. that Wencezlaus ll is not this Vladislaus ll ..he was (this coin) king of Hungary and father of Louis ll, of Hungary...(i believe):)
     
  13. +VGO.DVCKS

    +VGO.DVCKS Well-Known Member

    ...Well, from here, Bohemians had more the aura of the Hussites.
     
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  14. +VGO.DVCKS

    +VGO.DVCKS Well-Known Member

    I had to go this far: https://www.behindthename.com/name/vladislav
    From as little as that, it looks as if the name, Wencezlaus, while no less emphatically Bohemian (and more broadly Slavic, with variations), doesn't correspond to Vladislaus.
    ...I was hoping that 'Vladislaus' might be related to the Latin, 'Ludovicus (/Louis, Ludwig),' but there are enough western European variants listed on the website to rule that out.
     
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  15. ominus1

    ominus1 Supporter! Supporter

    ..they had more raspsody man...:smuggrin: Bohemian Raspsody.jpg
     
  16. ominus1

    ominus1 Supporter! Supporter

    ..i quit countin' at 15 or 20 variations...:p
     
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  17. +VGO.DVCKS

    +VGO.DVCKS Well-Known Member

    ...I would've been thinking of Dvořák's "New World" Symphony. Dvořák went to the US, got cozy with some large community of Czech immigrants vaguely in the midwest, and wound up liking it here. Stayed awhile.
     
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  18. Quant.Geek

    Quant.Geek Well-Known Member

    Now, wouldn't it be awesome if some of those descendants got together to make the deck whole again, if possible!
     
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  19. Quant.Geek

    Quant.Geek Well-Known Member

    Bohemian coins are actually really cool, especially the older ones:

    Moravia, Holy Roman Empire: Premysl Otakar II (1253-1278) AR Bracteate (Cach-958; Donabauer-615)
    Obv: Anthropomorphic figure of bird standing right, holding sword and shield
    Rev: Incuse of obverse

    [​IMG]

    Bohemia: Vladislav I (1109-1118,1120-1125) AR Denár, Prauge mint (Cach-534)
    Obv: Horseman right, piercing fallen person with lance; Legend around - + VVLADIZAVS
    Rev: Nimbate bust of St. Wenceslaus facing with raised hand and cross; Legend around - + WENCEZLAVS

    [​IMG]


    Bohemia: Wenclaw II (1278-1310) AR Gross (Saurma-390)

    [​IMG]
     
  20. +VGO.DVCKS

    +VGO.DVCKS Well-Known Member

    Really (oh, what the h-ll) K-ck--ss stuff.
     
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