Featured Two counterfeit coins in counterfeit PCGS holders.

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by johnmilton, Jul 6, 2020.

  1. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    These two pieces were on the PCGS site this morning. I am posting them here to warn collectors NOT to depend on the holders for detecting counterfeits. This first one is a poor counterfeit in a deceptive holder.

    BAD 1915 $10 gold in a fake slab.

    1915 bad $10 gold slab.jpg 1915 bad $10 gold slab R.jpg

    Here are close-ups of the bad coin. These were supplied by the seller. Note that they are dark for a reason.

    1915 bad $10 gold O.jpg 1915 bad $10 gold R.jpg

    Counterfeiters get the serial numbers from real slabs by looking them up on sites like Heritage. Here is the the real coin. The photo is from the Heritage site.

    1915 good $10 gold O.jpg

    Here is a bogus 1903 $20 gold. Note that the fake logo on the back of the slab has bled over to the front. The "3" in the date does not match the other digits in the date which is a dead give away as to what this thing is.

    1903 bad $20 O.jpg 1903 bad $20 R.jpg

    Here is a genuine 1903 double eagle (right) beside the fake (left).

    1903 fake $20 bad nx good.jpg

    Neither of these things are really good counterfeits, but the fact that they are in slabs makes it easier to put one over on people who depend on slabs to prevent them from buying counterfeits.
     
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  3. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    Good thing they are not putting better fakes in the slabs. Two seconds tells you the grade is wrong, then another two seconds tells you they are fakes.

    That first holder would be kind of scary if they had put a "good" fake in there.
     
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  4. yakpoo

    yakpoo Member

    The mouth on that counterfeit Indian Head Eagle looks like a blow-up doll...(so I've been told).
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2020
  5. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    Here is a genuine coin beside the fake coin.

    Note the numbers in the date don't match the real coin.

    1915 $10 gold com O.jpg

    Note the lumps of metal in the fields on the reverse. This is elementary stuff now in counterfeit protection, but those who are just getting started should note this.

    1915 $10 bad good together R.jpg


    1915 bad $10 gold R.jpg
     
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  6. Mountain Man

    Mountain Man Well-Known Member

    Oh the inhumanity of it all. You can't trust anything any more. It used to be said, "never trust what you read and only half of what you see." But with CGI, Photoshop, etc. you can't believe anything. The above is such a bad fake, that it would only fool a novice, but still, there it is and they will improve on it to fool even TPG soon.
     
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  7. fretboard

    fretboard Defender of Old Coinage!

    Yep, along with the whole coin! :D The Indian head was a little better but not much! I wonder how much difference the fake slabs are in comparison to genuine PCGS slabs?? I wonder which is a better counterfeit, the coin or the slab?
     
  8. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    The $10.00 gold slab is pretty good, especially the bar code. The 1903 is really bad every which way:D...


    comp-obv.jpg

    comp-rev.jpg
     
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  9. Penna_Boy

    Penna_Boy Just a nobody from the past

    I just thought I'd mention that it's not a good idea to point out where the counterfeiters made their mistakes. Wonder why they're getting better? Just IMHO.
     
    GoldFinger1969 likes this.
  10. Dima

    Dima Member Supporter

    Hmm sounds like a cheaper alternative to getting #1 set registry :p

    The Eagle slab is rather convincing; glad the coin inside isn't a perfect counterfeit. The Double Eagle looks like a joke..
     
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  11. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    That is a double edged sword. If you don't explain how to spot the counterfeit, more people will get taken in. I think that it is better to point out at least some of the problems.
     
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  12. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Well-Known Member

    I don't think the counterfeiters are trying to fool the CT crowd or numismatists or folks who attend coin shows. They're looking to fool the really unsophisticated folks who think they're getting a steal.

    They're not trying to fool Heritage buyers, but Ebay buyers.

    Thanks for posting this thread, JM.
     
  13. fretboard

    fretboard Defender of Old Coinage!

    Yep, a fast talking person could get over on people who don't know any better! I'm thinking the victims could be easily be found at a swap meet! :D No offense to people who frequent swap meets but there's all kinds of counterfeits there!
     
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  14. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    I agree. No sense keeping generic issues with the coins secret. I understand maybe the scammers read posts like this, but good ones would know it already. This is really shoddy workmanship of the coin, but the slab is troubling.

    Problem is, once the fakes get better, if they are in plastic how are you going to prove it? That is why I hate slabs, due to that risk. I imagine making a perfect fake slab is way easier than a perfect fake coin. Make the slab perfect, get a good fake coin in there, (lots of things could be wrong with it internally but being in a slab you cannot prove it unless you crack it out), = PROFIT! You want to see money flee this hobby? Show collectors and dealers they cannot rely on slabs anymore and have to try to authenticate coins through plastic windows, (well, some parts of the hobby that is predicated on slabbed coins).

    That is the nightmare scenario the hobby does not wish to acknowledge, and the achilles heel of far too many relying on slabs rather than their own knowledge.
     
  15. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    This will be PCGS’ undoing since so many of their slabs cannot be verified with pictures
     
  16. fiddlehead

    fiddlehead Well-Known Member

    Wow, just wow. I could throw in "disturbing".
     
  17. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Well-Known Member

    What are they doing about it ? I just looked up one of my Saints, and there are no pics.

    Certification number plus pics is the only way to be sure (assuming the counterfeit isn't similarly graded and/or looks the same).
     
  18. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    They are improving holder security, with holders made in China.

    The RFID chip is just a bandaid fix and a marketing ploy. All the coins with the chip currently have pictures, which are far more useful in holder verification than the chip. The chip info can be swiped using an RFID encoder and transferred to a fake slab with a fake chip. If there is no picture, the chip is useless in this case, or at least as useful as the QR code or barcode. They may have incorporated some safeguards to prevent this, but obviously it isn’t in the public domain for good reason.

    We should be scared when the fake slabs start redirecting to a fake TPG website with pics of the fake coins in the fake holders. Wouldn’t that be a fun minefield?
     
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  19. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    You always claim this yet never show any evidence when Brett himself already corrected Insider when he made a likely half joking claim like that on the CU page
    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/12540132#Comment_12540132

    This has been pointed out to you before if not multiple times before but sure keeping pushing that
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2020
  20. calcol

    calcol Supporter! Supporter

    I'm not familiar with the sophistication of the wireless responder available in newer PCGS slabs. It's certainly possible to put in a responder that is essentially impossible to duplicate. Have they done it?

    Cal
     
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  21. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    For all intensive purposes yes. The people with the tech ability to really do a complete shadow site compatible with their app that they would have hacked without being detected wouldn't be wasting their time or that big equipment outlay trying to fake coins for a few bucks, they're working on much bigger stuff. The chips only respond in close proximity too. It's laughable when people act like it will easily be broken

    https://www.pcgs.com/news/security-chip-slabs

    The plan from the discussions when they were announced was that they will be in every slab going forward at some point. Covid probably slowed that down a bit but I haven't seen any discussions that that plan has changed
     
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