Trying to Understand Coin Grading

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by rush2112, Nov 2, 2013.

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  1. geekpryde

    geekpryde Husband and Father Moderator

    the OP may find the following videos very informative, I know I did. There was a thread here a week ago or so.



     
    geekpryde, Nov 4, 2013
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  3. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    Doug,

    I own the first edition of THE PCGS OFFICIAL GUIDE TO COIN GRADING AND COUNTERFEIT DETECTION and they address the subject of toning and its relationship to grade.

    I think that passage is carefully worded and purposefully vague so that they can handle the subjectivity inherent to the topic of toning/eye appeal. They go on to list the different types of toning and discuss which types are positive, neutral, and negative and are equally as vague in those passages.

    NGC does not publish their grading standards, however, they started the star designation in order to recognize a coin that has exceptional eye appeal due to toning (et al). This would lead one to assume that they don't factor toning into the numerical grade of the coin. My experience is that attractive toning can and does result in a numerical grade bump. The Morgan Dollar shown below is a good example.

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    If this coin did not have incredible toning, I very much doubt that anybody would grade this coin any higher than MS63 given the condition of the obverse focal area (cheek). When NGC encapsulates a coin with the reverse showing forward, they essentially change the established focal areas of the coin IMO. Typically, the grade of the obverse is more important to the overall grade of the coin when there is a disparity between the grades of the obverse and reverse of the coin. So while the coin shown above might have a grade (Obv/Rev) of (63/65), by flipping the coin in its holder the grade becomes (65/63). If the coin were untoned, the MS63 obverse would limit the grade of the coin to MS63 since the obverse controls the overall grade. Since the coin is attractively toned on the reverse, NGC seems to consider the reverse of the coin more important than the obverse. The result it that the MS63 grade of the obverse is averaged with the MS65 grade of the reverse and the resultant overall grade becomes MS64 with a * designation to further recognize the exceptional eye appeal of the coin.

    Of course, I don't work for NGC and don't know their grading policies. What I have stated above is my opinion about how they grade toned coins based on my experience in dealing with these coins. In general, I find that many toned coins, specifically, toned Morgan Dollars are overgraded by 1 point.

    PS. Doug, I am aware that you would not grade the reverse of the coin shown above MS65. I used MS65 because that is how I think NGC would grade a coin with those surfaces and that toning.

    Paul
     
    Lehigh96, Nov 4, 2013
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  4. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Perhaps you should have quoted the first part of the paragraph you got that quote from Paul.

    " When the subject of color (or toning) arises, eyebrows are raised. Only eye appeal generates this kind of emotion from serious numismatists. There seem to be two basic camps : nature's beautiful work or nature's wrath. In fact, both are correct."

    I think what they should have said is, In fact, both may or may not be correct. Why ? Because it depends on who you ask.

    For in chapter 3 of the PCGS book you find the following -

    " Judgments regarding color or toning are sometimes subjective. When a coin has beautiful original color or toning, this is almost universally viewed in a positive way. However, many coins have color or toning that may be considered differently by individual graders. Eye appeal is a combination of all of the other elements of a coin's grade, so there is often some disagreement on this factor as well. When a coin has blazing luster and is almost fully struck with almost no marks, the eye appeal is great and there is little or no controversy. As with color or toning however, most coins do not fall into that category. A grader then, makes a partly conscious, partly subconscious decision on a coins eye appeal. These factors are then combined into a final grade."

    Paul, (and Chris) I don't even pretend to believe that the TPGs don't sometimes bump grades because of attractive toning. You know they do, I know they do, pretty much everybody knows they do. But then they also bump grades because of a pedigree, or because of rarity, or because of value. And everybody knows that too. But at the same time pretty much everybody disagrees with it.

    Is toning any different ? No it isn't. The toning itself should have no effect whatsoever on the grade of a coin. They admit (see above) that one grader may bump a grade because of toning while another will not. Yes, there is some subjectivity in grading, no doubt about it. But when it comes to toning there is too much subjectivity, that's why when it comes to toning most coins do not fall into that category of little or no controversy - even among their own graders.

    So yeah, they're vague, they're confusing, and they are on purpose. Because on one hand they tell you yes, and on the other hand they tell you no.
     
    GDJMSP, Nov 4, 2013
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  5. rush2112

    rush2112 Junior Member

    The toning on that 1885-o is, of course nice, but, double click on the pic of the reverse side of the coin were talking about, and what some here are calling toning, looks more like black "crud".

    I also see serious rim damage at the top, I never saw before until I double clicked on the image.

    I now, firmly believe this coin is a different one than the one that received the original grade. The grader does not have a website or email address otherwise, I would forward these images.

    informal
    noun: crud; plural noun: cruds
    1. 1.
      a substance which is considered unpleasant or disgusting, typically because of its dirtiness.
     
    rush2112, Nov 4, 2013
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  6. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    It is toning whether you like it or not. If calling it crud makes you feel better, go right ahead. What is the name of the grading company? We can't make it out from the photos.
     
    Lehigh96, Nov 4, 2013
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  7. Tom B

    Tom B TomB Everywhere Else

    What coin is this written about? The 1885-O that Lehigh96 posted?
     
    Tom B, Nov 4, 2013
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  8. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    Tom,

    He was talking about the coin he posted in the OP. I usually try not to post coins that will confuse the subject, but it looked as though the original question was asked, answered, and that the thread had taken a new twist. I guess I was wrong.

    Paul
     
    Lehigh96, Nov 4, 2013
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  9. Tom B

    Tom B TomB Everywhere Else

    Ahhh...okay. I hadn't realized that post was written about two coins and was sitting here scratching my head to figure it out. Thank you for the post, it clears up quite a bit for me.

    If we are now discussing something around 12:00 on the original ICCS certified coin, then I suspect what we are looking at is the glare off of crimped plastic on the flip. As for calling the apparent toning "crud", well, that's okay too. What the heck, call it what you like.
     
    Tom B, Nov 4, 2013
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  10. rush2112

    rush2112 Junior Member

    I suppose it's beautiful "toning" if your selling it and "crud" if your buying it.

    At least most of us agree that it's an un-sightly coin and none of us would buy it.
     
    rush2112, Nov 4, 2013
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