Transitional Athens owl question

I already had one of the post 449 BC Athens owl tetradrachms, which I love, but it is lower grade. So I finally shelled out the money for a pre-449 BC "transitional" owl. I was interested if anyone here had any insight into some of the characteristics of these coins. Mine is below. What I've learned so far about transitional distinguishing features (generally apparent on my coin) are.

1. Smaller AOE lettering on the reverse.
2. Owl's head is at an angle.
3. Owl's body is stouter.
4. Olive leaves on Athena's helmet have small stems at base.
5. Palmette leaves on Athena's helmet are smaller, more realistic, and less decorative.

This coin was listed by the dealer as a Starr V.B. 455-449 BC tetradrachm. There are apparently different series of Starr V.B. coins as well as Starr V.A. coins that were made around the same time. I have no idea how to differentiate these coins, as I don't have Starr's book on the subject. But if anyone knows about these coins and has any pertinent information to share that would be great! Thanks!

 

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This is not STARR V. It is one of the bridging issues between V and the subsequent mass coinage. The STARR Vs have distinct 3 feathers in the tail. yours looks like this one https://cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=333806

 

I don't the books/articles to answer your questions but Leu's catalogers are good so I'm inclined to trust the reference. There are different Starr groups and subgroups, so maybe this type without the three distinct tail feathers is a transitional transitional ? Tail feather issue aside, Athena and the reverse do have the earlier look.

Nice coin!

 

Here is one with three fairly distinct tail feathers:

 

STARR has quite a number of tets in group V (158-211) and there is none without the characteristic 3 feather tail. On the contrary the coin of @Nathan P is in the plate with the coins after 449 BC.

And may I remind you that the catalogers at Leu have been noting old collections as provenance for owl tets evidently coming from the recent hoard?

 

Very pretty, this is Group IV

 

Requesting an opinion. If a transitional owl with separate tail feathers is $x, all other things being equal, what is the market value of the earliest prong tail coins? I am not in the market for a three feather coin but, if I were, I would not find humor in a seller selling a prong tail as 'transitional'? They may be right and it may have been made in the first batch of prongs but we have to draw the line somewhere.

I have shown many times my beat up obol with three feathers on an oval flan. Oh, how I would love to see this coin as it fell from the dies. Who has one? Increasingly I discover that I participate in a sub-specialty where die work is important to a greater degree than state of preservation. On modern coins, the dies are the same so there is no 'fine style' to be had (except for the $20 Roman numeral date coins). I don't collect modern coins and dies matter.

if you add the triple tail and deep incuse we can agree.

 

That one's close except for the olive leaves on Athena's helmet which lack the stem at the base and are more similar to the mass coinages. Here's a Heritage listing saying 455-440 BC transitional that looks a lot like mine, and also doesn't have the three prongs on the tail.

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=5877746

FWIW, if you go on acsearch there are tons of owls labeled transitional from respected auction houses that don't have a three pronged tail.

 

Oh.

Oh no! I hope that is not the case.

 

Leu catalogued this as IV https://leunumismatik.com/en/lot/13/218

Auction houses do what they can to increase their profit. Or they are simply ignorant. Or a combination of both.

Do spend 30$ to buy the paperback version of STARR if you don't believe me. You can also check CNG, I haven't ever seen a STARR IV/V misattributed. Here a couple more, which are similar to yours:

https://cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=317824
https://www.sixbid-coin-archive.com/#/en/single/l18166959?text=athen tetra&companyId=c711

 

Thanks-- I will gladly spend $30 to correct my ignorance .

 

Hey, thanks for all the information! I've order the Starr book. I think you're right that the single prong tail suggests it's not a Starr V. However, I think Leu's dates of 454-449 might be right based on all the other similar characteristics. If I'm not mistaken Starr V coins are supposed to be from 465-454? Then the mass issues begin in 449. So Joe over at Forum, for instance, puts these transitional - transitional coins in that 454-449 window. He has a few in this link that look very close to mine.

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=66&pos=0&iop=50&sold=1

BTW don't feel too bad for me I paid $660 or so all in and didn't buy it because I thought it was a Starr V (not knowing anything about Starr's book).

 

I am a cheapskate and consider that a bargain price.

 

Here are 2 of my transitional Owls. The first one with 3-feathered tails was labeled by NGC to be 465-455 BC. The second one, with only 1-feathered tail, was labeled at a later date of 455-440 BC (but still before the Mass Owls). I think my second coin is similar to yours.

Here is mine with 3-feather tails. Starr V. 465-455 BC.


And mine with one-feather tail. 455-440 BC.

 

Generally agree to your observations. I would add the following:
1. Owl's eyes are smaller.
2. Athena's face generally looks better, imho.

 

Nathan P what you seem to have is one of the Flament Type I which is minted starting in 454 B.C. The terminus of this group is debated but it seems to be the smallest of the three Flament groups. The Starr Group V coins have an owl with a visible three pronged tail feathers, whereas the 454-404 groups all have the tail feathers forming a single prong. Here are three of mine
1. Athens Tetradrachm Starr V A Circa 465 B.C. 16.91 grams 24 mm These coins tend to resemble the Starr Group IV's except that the hair over Athena's forehead is depicted as a single curve
2. Athens Tetradrachm Early Flament I Circa 454 B.C. 17.41 grams 25 mm These coins are often very well struck with broad flans and the owls can be very large. Both sides can resemble the later Starr Group V B Coins except for the tail feathers. 3. Athens tetradrachm Late Flament Type I Circa 450 B.C. 17.22 grams 24 mm These coins tend to resemble the later Flament Group II coins especially as the owl has his head straight though on these the head is slightly tilted back. The flans as in this case can be less well produced. Happy Collectors first coin is a Starr V B discussed above

 

If I were to make a guess I would think that Doug Smiths drachm is a Starr Group III coin minted minted circa 465 BC However I do have some reservations.

 

Thanks so much for this really terrific information on my coin - your examples are absolutely beautiful as well!

 

Terence, where can I find Flament's study of Athenian coins? I can find others referencing his work, but cannot find the work in question anywhere (I believe it is "Flament , Christophe, The silver coinage of Athens. From the Archaic Age to the Hellenistic Era (c.550-c.40 BC)"). Thanks again!

 

It is an obol.