Trajan coin authentic or cast?

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by arashpour, Jun 13, 2018.

  1. arashpour

    arashpour Well-Known Member

    Hi Roman experts

    Can you guys help me to know if this coin is cast? I bought it from a famous dealer but when I got the coin I found part of its edge is filed. I know filing could be an indication of cast and that is why I like to get some final answer here to know if it is fake so I can return to dealer?

    Trajan_NGC.jpg edge_trajan.jpg
     
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  3. Ken Dorney

    Ken Dorney Yea, I'm Cool That Way...

    Appears perfectly genuine, but the image of the edge is too blurry for anything to be seen. But having just checked where you got it, I would not have any issues with authenticity with them.
     
  4. arashpour

    arashpour Well-Known Member

    Thanks Ken. unfortunately it is hard to get a good image of the edge I dont have a high quality camera. But the part of the edge has been filed and scratches of filing obvious on the edge. If genuine then why filed? I mean isnt that is a sign of casts??
     
  5. arashpour

    arashpour Well-Known Member

    Also I did XRF analysis and the coin contained some traces of gold (0.3 %) and Iron (1.5%) and Silver content was 94.69 % does these look right? I thought silver should have been higher??
     
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  6. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

    Actually a nice looking example!
     
  7. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE Supporter

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  8. arashpour

    arashpour Well-Known Member

    That's it mine is not 93% which proves fake!
     
  9. Ken Dorney

    Ken Dorney Yea, I'm Cool That Way...

    Filing marks can be on a genuine coin for many reasons. Often when a coin was in jewelry.
     
  10. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member Supporter

    There are many reasons for a filed edge. It may have been used in jewelry. The flan may have has a sharp place that the mint corrected to make the coin look more professional. Trace gold is normal. I'd have guessed 94% slightly over average for Trajan but it is certainly within limits. Many cheap cameras allow you to prefocus on the marble background which is sharp here and continue holding the shutter button half way depressed as you back away the diameter of the coin moving the plane of best focus up where you want it. This will take practice so take several and use the best.

    You have decided that the coin is fake and refuse to listen to answers here when they differ from your notions. Send the coin back and never buy another from the seller. If you believe the ancient technology kept alloy within 1%, you will not be happy with any coin you buy from any dealer.
     
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  11. arashpour

    arashpour Well-Known Member

    Thanks Ken. So how can we know if filing is because cast or because jewelry?
     
  12. Ken Dorney

    Ken Dorney Yea, I'm Cool That Way...

    Well, typically speaking if its a cast those filing marks would be all around the coin. But that is also true of jewelry coins. Either way, I think the seller (its easily looked up) would certainly not knowingly pass on a bad coin, nor would they likely not notice a coin that was previously in jewelry.
     
  13. arashpour

    arashpour Well-Known Member

    Thanks Ken. The seller is a famous auction house. I actually told them that the coin has filed edge and asked for return. They said its not fake if fake they will return, but my argument is even if genuine but ex jewelry they should have mentioned it in description that it has edge marks they didn't mention it so I think to be fair they should take it back. I am pushing for them to accept return and sent it back to them. the edge mark is not all over the edge is part of it.
     
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  14. 7Calbrey

    7Calbrey Well-Known Member

    Genuine.. Good Luck.
     
  15. red_spork

    red_spork Triumvir monetalis Supporter

    The Romans did not have modern metallurgical techniques or materials analysis equipment and the referenced post clearly states that these are averages and there will be differences. Some variation in purity and in the ratios of various trace elements is expected especially when you consider that there were several sources of bullion including mines, melting of old Roman coins and bullion captured from enemies. We even see coins from time to time that have alloy mixing issues.
     
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  16. arashpour

    arashpour Well-Known Member

    Please also note this coin has 1.5% Iron(Fe) content which is very strange I never saw any article that shows roman denarii had iron in it. This add to my suspicion that iron might come from cast mould ??
     
  17. Ken Dorney

    Ken Dorney Yea, I'm Cool That Way...

    Trace elements in ancient coinage depend on a huge variety of circumstances. Where does the bullion come from, which mine? How much of it is recycled? There are many reasons why any element may show up, and none are indicative of a fake (unless really out of whack with known amounts). Here is one good article on the content of denarii of the period. There are others, and one can seek them out if interested:

    https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/arts/classics/staff/butcher/butcher.ponting_aiin.pdf
     
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  18. atcarroll

    atcarroll Well-Known Member

    I'm not sure how precise they could get with refining metal 1900 years ago.
     
  19. arashpour

    arashpour Well-Known Member

    Thanks Ken. I read this article and some other ones such as
    http://etd.lib.metu.edu.tr/upload/12615717/index.pdf

    But none of these articles ever showed any roman coin with Iron in it so that is a red flag at least some should have been seen in these articles . The one I sent had tested hundreds of denarius for XRF.
     
  20. IdesOfMarch01

    IdesOfMarch01 Well-Known Member

    It's not clear (at least to me) what your subsequent posts (after your initial question about authenticity) are trying to accomplish.

    From my reading of this thread it seems that:

    (1) you believe that your coin is a forgery
    (2) all the other posters believe that it's not a forgery, for a variety of reasons
    (3) you don't want the coin even if it's not a forgery, due to the appearance of edge filing that was not disclosed prior to your purchase

    It seems to me that your recourse, if there is any, is with the auction house that guarantees authenticity (but does not guarantee that the coin has not has its edge filed).

    Continual posting on this site of your reasons that you dislike/don't want the coin, or trying to prove its a forgery when everyone else believes its genuine, are probably not going to be very constructive in convincing the auction house to accept your return. You might want to consider expending your efforts on working with the auction house to see if you can reach a mutually acceptable resolution, and, as Doug suggested above, don't buy from that auction house in the future.
     
  21. arashpour

    arashpour Well-Known Member

    @IdesOfMarch01 Well this is a major auction house in world and I did purchased many coins from them and no issue this is only one has issue . I feel it is fake I mean I can not convince myself

    1. why it has Iron content?
    2. why would anyone damages edge of a genuine coin to reduce its value. Ancient coin is valuable and does not make any sense someone damage and file/scratch it unless that person trying to hide something(maybe a cast sprue)

    not buying from the auction house in future not realistic solution because compare to other options I think they are the most reliable source but not 100% like in my case.
     
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