TPGs, Pedigrees, and Coins

Grading is basically irrelevant when it comes to ultra rarities, which the 1870-s Dollar is. The grade only serves to rank the coins, which that grade adequately does.

This is a separate issue from systemic overgrading, and is also different from the idea of preferential treatment, neither of which really concerns me much. NGC and to a lesser extent PCGS do a very good job of being accurate and consistant, they make their mistakes, but they are fairly infrequent.

 

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I think you may be confused. That coin was never AU, it has always been a proof. It was catalogged decated ago as an impaired proof based on the chatter/reed marks on the coinand was assigned a net grade in the 50's. Since then it has sold at auction twice with no grade assigned because the cataloggers each time knew what it had been called before and that the actual grade was irrelevant to its value. It had never been seen by a grading company prior to NGC certifying it and they called it a 62. That grade more accurately describes how bust dollars are graded right now than a PR58 would have, though the price realized wouldn't likely have changed because this coin is ranked among the Class 1 1804's and whether it is a 50 or 58, or 62 it's rank remains the same.

this is one of the rare cases where the grader(s) were acutely aware of who owned the coin, who submitted the coin, and the irrelevance of what grade they actually assigned to it as long as they didn't disrupt the coins position in the condition census.

 

As far a COLLECTORS go Professional Grading (IMO) is irrelevant and unneeded in most cases. The exception however, would be a series of example coins (open to the public), displaying the appropriate grade for the amount of wear on each of the example coin/s shown. Professionally assigned grades should simply a learning tool for those who seek the to know the difference without resorting to reading a guide which puts the picture to words, and we all know a picture is worth 1000 words. Either way you're immersing yourself in knowledge about the series and that in itself negates the need for the slab..:hammer::hammer::hammer:

When the collector turns into an investor or speculator, well that's when the problems usually occur. Just about the only folks who've made BIG money are those who created the market for grading, not those who've speculated in the graded items.

Take Care
Ben

 

"CAN vary" is very different from "FREQUENTLY varies". The truth is the top TPGs are very consistent. Also, VF20 -> VF25 is a swing of 5 points, but only one quanta. Is that worth getting excited about ?

I've said it before, and I'll throw down the challenge again : If you really believe the TPGs are all over the map, I have good news. You can become very wealthy !

All you have to do is go grab a lot of undergraded coins (let's say MS62 $10 Libbies), and resubmit them ! They'll come back MS63 to MS67 (a swing of 5 points) and will be worth a fortune ! In fact, you'll score big if you can get 10% of them to upgrade 1 point.

Give it a try. Post up and tell me how you do.

 

There's nothing wrong with preferring raw coins. I'm totally cool with that, and buy some raw myself.

In particular, folks who study early american coinage have a special reason for preferring raw coins - the rim. On more modern coins, the rim is of little interest. On older series, notably early 1/2c, large 1c, bust halves, etc., the rim is of great interest for attribution. Plus, they're cool and interesting. Slabs prevent appreciation of the rim.

No, there's nothing wrong with preferring raw coins.

There is something wrong with the mindset "I hate slabs, and you should too !" "Totally boycott all slabs all the time, regardless of your unique circumstances !"

For whatever reason, it's the anti-slab people who tend to be close-minded on the topic.

Live and let live. There are legitimate reasons for slabs. A professional opinion is of value in the marketplace.

Let's accept that, be reasonable, and move on.

 

BUY THE GUITAR, NOT THE PEDIGREE !!!!

A guitar owned by Elvis worth much more than one owned by, say, me.

If some want to pay extra, that's their business. Personally, I don't. Live and let live. Whatevah.

 

Regarding this point, I can't blame the TPGs for the enormous price differences between certain grades. I blame the collectors for putting that much faith in the grade that they believe the price difference is warranted. When I see an MS65 selling for 3 to 5 times the price as an MS64 it makes me cringe [whether it is slabbed or not]. But to me, this doesn't diminish the value of the TPGs opinion. A slab is a tool. Misusing a tool isn't the tool's fault.

 

BURN!!

Now, let's all go stand in the corner and think about what we've done...

 

You're blurring the line between Collectors with Speculators, Investors, and Dealers. There's a big difference sir...


Ben

 

Spock, (pls don't take this the wrong way) but, to be quite honest I don't care what your coins are worth. I'm simply a collector and can afford to be just that...


Ben

 

no offence taken but sure you realize as a collector you are not operating in a vaccum you are competing for the same coin with other dealers or investors ( granted some investor and collector coins can be vastly different) so if there is an perceived increase in value because of a pedigree and you like that coin you cant get it for regular prices whether you care about the pedigree or not. thats all what i was trying to say

 

Spock, I've purchased expensive "pedigree" coins at bargains before and cracked them out simply to get a better look (*1810 CBH) at the whole coin. I then wrote the history of the coin down in the collection notebook and saved the documentation.

It's fun. To me this is CoinTalk not SlabTalk...

 

Agree, mostly new collectors or inheritors. But simple discussion like this keeps the forum going on a daily basis.

Ben

 

at least these forums allow discussion of a given subject w/o becoming insulting. most folks i have seen here, post their opinions w/o becoming abusive. it is so nice to provide a civil mannered discussion as, is as always...people's opinions will vary and there are many valid points. thank you all here for being "adults" in conveying your opinions!!!

i still find price subjective. a coin (or a car, ect) will have a given value for a given person depending upon their viewpoint.

as i stated earlier..whether it makes sense or not .WERE i able to afford it, AND depending upon the item...i would pay more for a david bowers' coin than i would from another individual simply because it would be cool (to me). the PREMIUM i would pay would depend upon my budget as well as the coin.

i always base the price i will pay for a given coin by researching it thru actual sales and pics, ect..w/ the majority of the decision making going to my firm pricing (the price I happen to determine for MY reason, w/ my own decision upon what said coin is worth. it doesn't matter what a slab or 2x2 says it is...the coin is worth <to me> it is what it is) made ahead of time.

i try to make it unemotionally as i buy mainly thru auction. it allows me at least a week or more to decide.

once again, nice topic and only my own opinion....steve

 

But that pedigreed coin is not the only fish in the sea. Other coins of that issue will come around.

I know we could say "but I want THIS one NOW and I don't want to pay pedigree premium... it may be a long time before another one comes around", but that's just the way it goes.

Very few coins offered at auction or at coin shows are pedigree premium, so why worry ?

If some one wants to pay extra for an Eliasberg S$1, it's like Elvis' guitar... that's their business. It really doesn't affect me.

 

I do it a bit differently. I form an opinion about what I think the coin is worth, then ask "what's the price?" I know others will disagree, but I've always thought that what something was worth and what it will cost are two different things.

 

I think when it comes to most pedigree coins, the grade on the slab is irrelevent and could (should?) be left off completely. In most cases the buyer is more concerned with where it's been as aposed to condition. Shipwreak coins are a good examlpe, I have seen slabs labeled "shipwreak effect" that sell for way more money than a compareable MS example.
My self, unless the coin came out of Ben Franklin or George Washington's pocket, I am very unlikely to pay a premium for a coin for the pedigree, after all if you remove the lable, it's just another coin.
On the other hand, if we all had the income of a Bill Gates, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

I wouldn't pay extra even if it did. Not knocking those who are willing to pay extra because a given item has some special pedigree, like the guitar owned by Elvis for example, but when it comes to coins, I just don't care whether or not it came from a famous shipwreck, was owned by a famous person, or came from some famous collection. Do you think Eliasberg really cared where the coins he put in his collection came from? So why should I care if a given coin came from his personal collection? It's still the same coin if it didn't, isn't it?

I love the "shipwrech effect" designation, it's probably the most succesful scam the TPGs came up with, a way to get people to pay premiums for coins that are in worse condition than those without it! An even better scam than "first strike" which at least alleges the coins are in better condition.

A coin's a coin, I couldn't possibly care less where it came from. Doesn't magically make it a better coin than any other given coin of the same type and condition as far as I'm concerned. Paying extra for some special provenance is just a waste of money in my firm opinion.