TPGs, Pedigrees, and Coins

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by Bonedigger, Apr 13, 2008.

  1. Bonedigger

    Bonedigger New Member

  2. Avatar

    Guest User Guest



    to hide this ad.
  3. walterallen

    walterallen Coin Collector

    Are you insinuating that there may be some kind of corruption involved with the grading of coins to influence those with the monetary resources to spend ungodly sums of money to have coins graded by the top TPG's.

    Surely the top TPG companies would not stoop to such tactics. Their sole purpose is to help the less knowledgeable collector to obtain a valid grade for their coins for a humble fee. To suggest that they are providing this invaluable service just to make money is unconscionable.

    Sorry to be such a smart --- but I could not help it.

    IMHO these companies are not above doing anything that would put more money in their pockets then they already have. Designating a coin with an attribution that it belonged to someone of great stature, influence, wealth, or something like that is just another sales tactic like "first strike", which we know is a bunch of hooey, but will bring a premium at sale.

    Would they give a coin a higher grade because someone of wealth and power summited it??? ABSOLUTELY!!!

    Nice post, thanks Bone. Felt good to get that out.
     
  4. Cloudsweeper99

    Cloudsweeper99 Treasure Hunter

    I would hope not. But in real life, there must be coins very close to the line where the elite owner gets the benefit of the doubt. Condition is analog but the grading system is digital.
     
  5. 900fine

    900fine doggone it people like me

    This is possible if the graders are explicitly made aware that a given coin is owned by a given individual. My bet is such scenarios are extremely rare to non-existent. It is not something which worries me.

    True. The system is quantized - but it was not invented by the TPGs.
     
  6. LSM

    LSM Collector

  7. Pocket Change

    Pocket Change Coin Collector

    Of course it's true - DOH!

    And of course, you're an absolute, total idiot if you pay the associated premium.

    But it most certainly happens. Not a very good question!!!
     
  8. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    There is no doubt in my mind that they do.
     
  9. Aslanmia

    Aslanmia Active Member

    You would think that inflating the grade like that would bring the TPG to it's knees...

    Isn't inaccurate grading how we tell the good TPGs from the bad TPGs regardless of where the coin came from? I thought that at PCGS coins were essentially anonymous while being graded so as to prevent bias on the part of the grader?
     
  10. Bonedigger

    Bonedigger New Member

    To be quite honest, many times (I think) the purchasing individual is concerned with the pedigree more than the grade on the slab. In these lower/middle value coins (like I collect, BCBHDC ;)) the grade on the slab means little while who owned it adds significant value. FWIW, the two JR coins I have one was cracked out and the other (the 1814, EF-40, first link) is still slabbed and I've got the documentation of it's ownership by Mr. Reiver.

    Now, if it was a MS-68 1927-D St Gaudens Double Eagle which had been owned by Tex Ritter for example then I suspect the proper/accurate grade would upon the slab would be more important than the pedigree, LOL... :D
     
  11. Treashunt

    Treashunt The Other Frank

    Ben:
    How about the 1804 dollar that was 'upgraded' from AU to Pr-62?

    Baloney for the bogus grades for 'select' coins.
     
  12. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    They are. But when you are dealing with very well known collections of historical significance of coins that you don't find every day - wouldn't you say it's pretty hard NOT to know where they come from ?
     
  13. gmarguli

    gmarguli Slightly Evil™

    I'd like to buy some Seated dollars from you. :)

    The coin looks like a low end VF coin. I suspect that you are basing your grade based on the amount of Liberty left on the shield. If so, for Seated dollars this area is higher than on the minors and wears faster to give the impression of more wear than the coin really has. Based on the overall detail left it does appear VF. However, it looks cleaned in the picture.
     
  14. srkjkd

    srkjkd Book before coin

    hi ben!
    hope your daughter and all involved are doing well. i truly would love to know my coin's pedgree as well as history. it will probably make me pay a premium, but not for grade. grade is grade and still subjective !!! don't think i will ever worry about buying king farouk's coins!!!!!
    however, off topic, i have books from my martial arts instructors which i purchased at face value $19.95, that are now worth close to $200 because they were never allowed a reprint.
    they are worth even more due to the fact that my instructors' have signed them. once again, as in coins, they are only worth what someone else will pay, but still, due to another collector or student's interest,, they are worth more. it is only from mine and their viewpoint(and others who share the same opinion).
    from a personal viewpoint, i honestly think i would pay more money for a pedigreed david bowers' coin than a coin from an unknown collector, no offense to them.
    it doesn't really make economic sense, but due to my admiration for him, i would pay more. he has taught me so much thru his books, auction catalogues, and columnns. the premium would still depend upon my economic situation and what the item was.
    only my opinion, however and everyone has their own viewpoint and "heroes".....great topic Ben....steve
     
  15. spock1k

    spock1k King of Hearts

    i believe in just buying the coin not the slab nor the former owner those are just marketing gimmics IMHO. Hell 20 yers down the line i wouldnt want someone paying extra money coz the coin has spock1k as a pedigree. I have a few coins from the benson colelction and i did not pay any sort of premium for the word benson nor am i going to pay for any premium coz of someones name being wriiten on the slab. but i guess i am a very small minority that thinks that way
     
  16. spock1k

    spock1k King of Hearts

    for these well known and unique coins its easy to guess the owner and get biased
     
  17. spock1k

    spock1k King of Hearts

    now only if i cracked the slab i would ask you to break it but since i keep my coins slabbed i cant say that. i used to be neutral towards pedigrees now i guess i dont like them the only small consolation is that for most coins that carry a huge premium coz of the pedigree are out of the reach of the average collector and soa re they saved from this marketing campaign
     
  18. Troodon

    Troodon Coin Collector

    Corruption no. In order to be corrupt there has to be a "correct" grade that they're intentionally not giving it. Since a grading opinion is purely subjective, who's to say the grade they give is too high? That's just a difference of opinion between you and the grader, not a sign of corruption.

    Having said that, do I think that they use somewhat more forgiving standards on coins with an interesting provenence, or rare coins, or keys and semi-keys? Yes, of course they do, but so what? It's still just an opinion. Call it adjustment to allow for the market reality that they're more desirable ("market-grading" for short).

    It's not dishonest unless they honestly believe the coin doesn't deserve the grade they give it. Since a grade is just a matter of opinion anyway it would be hard to catch them at it... how do you prove they don't really believe what they say they think the grade is? Even if you can show that similar coins graded by them received a lower grade that only proves inconsistency of standards or varying opinions, not dishonesty necessarily.

    A grade is just an opinion, and all opinions, by definition, are purely subjective. I should add that to my sig line... in fact I just did.
     
  19. Cloudsweeper99

    Cloudsweeper99 Treasure Hunter

    The TPGs pride themselves on following their own internal objective grading standards. Some are better than others. The standards might vary a little from company to company, but aren't really subjective in the way that opinions about art are subjective. When the company doesn't follow its own internal standards, that's corruption. Everyone can tell an MS65 from an MS60. The differences in opinion usually come about for very small differences in grade that can make a large difference in value.
     
  20. Troodon

    Troodon Coin Collector

    They may pride themselves on that, but consistently coming up with the same opinion doesn't make it less of an opinion. Besides, it's been proven that you can send any given coin to a given grading company and come up with a different grade many times; sometimes it can vary by as many as 5 points even from the so-called top tier grading companies! I'll concede your point that if a company claims to have consistent standards but in reality just assigns arbitrary grades, that's corruption. But even if they have a consistent set of standards it's still an individual grader's subjective opinion as to whehther a given coin meets them or not. Again, the proof of that is you can send the same individual coin to the same TPG multiple times and not get the same grade every time... some experiments have shown variances of up to plus or minus 5 points from even the top tier grading services. If there was actually such a thing as "an objective grading standard" the coin should come back as exactly the same grade every time, which it doesn't. If the coin's condition hasn't changed, but the grade has, the only possibilites are that either the grading is subjective or that the company does not have consistent standards, take your pick; either way it proves their grading service is worthless.

    The fact that minute and subjective differences in grade can make a big difference in a coin's value proves what a complete rip-off TPGs are more than anything else. If I can't tell that difference between a coin that a TPG calls an MS66 and a MS67, I'd be a fool to pay the premium on the MS67. I'll just buy the MS66 and save money by getting a coin that looks almost as good as far as I can see.

    I spend money on coins, not on other peoples' subjective grading opinions. It would be a stupid waste of money otherwise. That's why I refuse to buy any TPG's services and won't even buy slabbed coins unless it's a coin that it is worth getting a professional jusgement on its authenticity rather than its grade.
     
  21. Bonedigger

    Bonedigger New Member

    ^^^ Great post Troodon. Collectors are loosing sight of the coins and focusing on the plastic... :thumb:

    Take Care
    Ben
     
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page