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<p>[QUOTE=&quot;Lehigh96, post: 2096788, member: 15309&quot;]When did I ever claim that only Saints were candidates for roll/bag friction?&nbsp; Answer, NEVER!&nbsp; In fact, I wrote a thread about a year ago where I cracked out an AU58 SLQ and resubmitted it because I knew that the friction was a result of roll/bag friction.&nbsp; You should know this because we engaged in the exact same debate that we are currently arguing for several pages in that thread.</p><p><br /></p><p><a href="https://www.cointalk.com/threads/guess-the-assigned-grade-1924-standing-liberty-quarter-bonus.219167/" class="internalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.cointalk.com/threads/guess-the-assigned-grade-1924-standing-liberty-quarter-bonus.219167/">Guess the Assigned Grade 1924 Standing Liberty Quarter Bonus</a></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>Logic does not dictate that &quot;wear is wear,&quot; because everyone is aware that friction can be found on the high points of coins that never circulated.&nbsp; Collectors don&#039;t want every coin that has wear to be graded MS, and that contention in itself is ludicrous.&nbsp; What they want is coins that have very minor high point friction from a series known for problems with high point friction to be graded MS rather than AU.</p><p><br /></p><p>For everyone following along in this thread, the quotes listed by Doug above come from the PCGS OFFICIAL GUIDE TO COIN GRADING AND COUNTERFEIT DETECTION, Chapter 3:&nbsp; Grading Techniques &amp; Technical Grading, Section:&nbsp; Technical Versus Market Grading.&nbsp; Directly preceding the quotes he posted is this passage:</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>There are some important points to note here.&nbsp; First, the comment about all Saints having broken luster on the high points is actually the second time they mention this in the book.&nbsp; Second, and more importantly, the sentence in red states that the quotes that Doug provided are the GENERAL RULES.&nbsp; What Doug doesn&#039;t want you to know is that in the 6 pages following the GENERAL RULES, PCGS goes on to provide the specific market grading rules regarding coin to coin friction for almost every series of US coins.&nbsp; These rules also encompass luster breaks due to incomplete strike as can be seen by the photo diagram from that Chapter shown below.</p><p><br /></p><p><img src="http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/ACPitBoss/Roll%20Friction/Roll%20Friction-Incomplete%20Strike_zpsyelqfxbb.jpeg" class="bbCodeImage wysiwygImage" alt="" unselectable="on" /></p><p><br /></p><p>Everyone, including Doug, accepts the fact that coins with an incomplete strike are graded as mint state coins despite the fact that the luster is broken in the area of the incompleteness.&nbsp; For all intents and purposes, an incomplete strike looks exactly like wear.&nbsp; But we accept it because we know that certain series of coins are notorious for incompleteness in certain high point areas.&nbsp; There is no difference between making an allowance for weak strike and making an allowance for roll/bag friction.&nbsp; Is it not possible that some coins that are deemed to have weak strikes are actually victims of circulation wear?&nbsp; I have seen some CBHs in the past that seemed to have wear to me but were graded MS due to weak strike.</p><p><br /></p><p>Furthermore, Doug would have you believe that the GENERAL RULES are just excuses to market grade AU coins to MS regardless of series.&nbsp; A quick examination of the specific rules by series will debunk that little myth.</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>So as we can see, Jefferson Nickels are pretty much graded technically.&nbsp; As this is my specialty, I can say for a certainty that I have never seen a Jefferson Nickel with friction graded MS.&nbsp; </p><p><br /></p><p>Standing Liberty quarters are plagued by &quot;roll/bag&quot; friction on the leg and many of them, including those in gem grades show such friction.</p><p><br /></p><p>&nbsp;<img src="http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/ACPitBoss/Standing%20Liberty%20Quarters/SLQ1917T1NGCMS65FH3032391-003H.jpg" class="bbCodeImage wysiwygImage" alt="" unselectable="on" /></p><p><br /></p><p>Walkers are plagued by both incomplete strike and &quot;roll/bag&quot; friction.&nbsp; PCGS refers the appearance from an incomplete strike as &quot;friction from strike.&quot; (see photo below)</p><p><br /></p><p><img src="http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/ACPitBoss/Walking%20Liberty%20Half%20Dollars/WLH1944-SNGCMS66RF.jpg" class="bbCodeImage wysiwygImage" alt="" unselectable="on" /></p><p><br /></p><p>So why is it acceptable to grade a Walker with &quot;friction from strike&quot; as an MS coin, but not acceptable to grade a coin with &quot;roll/bag friction&quot; as an MS coin?&nbsp; After all, if you have ever seen an AU58 Walking Liberty Half Dollar, you would know that the first place that shows wear is the exact same place that the &quot;friction from strike&quot; exists (see photo below).</p><p><br /></p><p><img src="http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/ACPitBoss/Walking%20Liberty%20Half%20Dollars/WLH1941-SPCGSAU58.jpg" class="bbCodeImage wysiwygImage" alt="" unselectable="on" /></p><p><br /></p><p>So how does PCGS tell the difference?&nbsp; The same way they tell the difference with respect to &quot;roll/bag friction.&quot;&nbsp; They look for friction in the fields and a dull grey appearance to the wear as opposed to the bright silvery appearance of coin to coin contact.</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>Listen, you can call it a contradiction all you want, but last time I checked, normal people read books starting at page 1 and moving forward.&nbsp; They address the issue of market grading and roll/bag friction on page 16 in Chapter 3.&nbsp; The definition of AU58 is provided on page 27 in Chapter 4.&nbsp; What you call a contradiction I call a general grading practice with a well explained exception to the general rule.&nbsp; The discussion of undisturbed fields with respect to roll/bag friction doesn&#039;t come until page 40 in Chapter 5.&nbsp; Perhaps your fight is with the editor of the book.[/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>

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