Tooled hairstyle.

https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/nu...ome_au5053_bronze_ric1019/809661/Default.aspx

brrrrrr

 

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Furchtbar !

 

schade

 

If we're going to limit ourselves to "deceptive" tooling, then I don't think the OP Vespasian coin counts. It's pretty easy to look at enough Vespasian portraits online to tell that the hair is not right.

 

One might not expect a fairly inexperienced collector to plunk down thousands of dollars on a Vespasian sestertius. One can, however, imagine a novice-to-intermediate collector spending, say, $75-100 on a Vespasian denarius. And I think such a collector could indeed be deceived by the tooling. In fact, if I did not know where to look, I would probably miss it myself, especially since I do not actively collect first-century denarii. In other words, what is "deceptive" may have as much to do with the experience level of the collector as it does with the intent of the tooler, and I think this denarius certainly qualifies as being "deceptive."

On a more philosophical basis, the whole point of tooling is to convince the viewer that the coin really has sharper detail and has experienced less honest wear than it actually has in its long history. That, to me, is prima facie deception.

 

I'm afraid I don't have your hubris. There are portraits of Vespasian with a lot of hair and others showing him completely bald. The OP coin fooled me and the well known, experienced dealer who sold it. Only upon an in hand inspection with a 7x loupe was I able to see the deceptive tooling. A fellow collector provided the die match obverse photo which shows how extensive the tooling really is. After that, it was case closed on the piece and it was returned.

All that being said, deceptive tooling of silver is rare and not encountered very often - which is probably why we see no other photos of it in the thread.

 

Do you have a mugshot gallery of Vespasian that would be good for showing his different hair styles? I'd also be curious if you had an image of a higher grade specimen from the same obverse die as the OP coin, because it just didn't look right to me.

 

There is a link to my Forvm gallery in my signature. Plenty of Vespasian 'mugs' to view there. Sorry, I don't have a higher grade obverse die match.

 

You make a good point Paul; however, "deceptive" is a moving target; totally dependent on the knowledge and experience of each of us. For example, you could just look at the image of a crudely designed, magnetic, off-color, Chinese Morgan dollar counterfeit on Ebay and stay away while six other bidders think it is authentic!

 

*self edit*

 

Doug wrote: "The way he posts, the way he says things, the way he does things, more often than not he comes off as being a jerk. And a lot if people take him that way, take his posts that way. I have tried to "advise" him to change his ways both privately and as a moderator on this forum, and to a degree he has. But just like the rest of us, he is who he is, the way he is. Can you change who you are, can I? No, probably not. And he can't either. But like I said he has made some effort, probably about the same amount that any of us could manage were we to try. Though I sure would like it if he could change some more!"

Thanks, I really, really am trying. But it seems I'm like the character Toad in the children's book "Wind in the Willows." I'll see something that just sets me off. Then I get contrite after the damage is done. I need to learn to sugar coat my opinion like: "I think I may disagree somewhat with what you have posted, would you please explain why you believe what you wrote is true?" Toad's reared his ugly head again but just in fun. I'll do better.

 

No one has disputed that tooling of bronze and brass and copper ancient coins--now and for hundreds of years--is an all-too-common occurrence. The point being made, by myself and others, is that truly deceptive tooling of gold and silver ancient coins is by and large a modern phenomenon.

That point stands.

 

Hey Mod-man, obviously "most" ancient coin collectors expect/know that pretty much all coins (including ancient coins) have a chance of being smoothed/tooled/enhanced

... sad, but true

 

Would you please like to define your idea of "modern?" Perhaps a date range?

 

"Modern" was a careless choice of words. "Very recent" would be a better one. Let's say the past 15 years or so,

 

I don't know how long you have been collecting ancients but I will not defend my opinion further here. If you are under forty, I have seen and rejected tooled ancient gold and silver ancient coins before you were born. I should like to tell you about counterfeit ancients, Dumbarton Oaks, and the British Museum; but I'll keep some things back to use at another time in a more suitable thread.

 

Well that was an eye opener to me. that kind of money and the dealer actually emphasises its been worked on. The equivalent in the medal world would be a renamed medal that would lose its value by 80%. Needles to say after these posts I've ordered Sayers book and will dust off my laptop microscope.
Wow, two days ago I learnt about aged forgeries and now it seems that on the other end of the scale even originals can be messed with. And of course its generally about greed.

 

Can someone please tell me how to start a new thread?

 

At the top right of the Ancients threads page is a box entitled "Start a New Thread"