I'll pipe in...I like the look of toned coins..but if you put 2 examples of the same coin in front of me..one that is toned, the other with original lustre..my eyes will always dart over to the non-toned coin 1st, and thats the one I'll pick up 1st.. If it comes to purchasing either one of these...same deal...non toned wins hands down. There are too many people playing the mad scientist with artificially toning coins, and there are some dealers that actually impose their own premium (I'd love to know what formula they use) when a coin is toned up. I don't love them that much. I love it however, when I have a coin in my collection and it tones away over the months. If it ever comes to selling it, then its the standard price as a non-toned.
1) I agree 2) I agree 3) I agree and have posted the reasons why in threads that you were an active member. Do you know the reasons why it has grown? 4) That is an opinion I agree with but not what you said in your first post. 5) Again, that is not what you said in your first post. Now here comes the sewage! This quote means that you think that the majority of toned coins are created by coin doctors and are not natural. You make this claim within hours of me posting quotes from some of the most respected members of the numismatic community telling you that original rainbow toned coins have existed for years. You have absolutely no proof that the rainbow toned coins of which you speak are the results of coin doctors but you have no problem spreading that gossip simply to bolster your own opinion. In short, the content of that quote is pure sewage.
3) internet, forums, improved imaging,,, probably improved images on the internet is the key driver imo...... toners are pretty when light hits them,, like sewage or an oil slick on water 4 & 5) Well maybe not word for word but pretty close I think... " anyone collecting toners with "investing" in mind will likely get burned on thier investment (including myself) to a greater extent than thier blast whites, or key dates, that were purchased closer to book value (imo)... Read more: http://www.cointalk.com/showthread.php?t=149248&page=3#ixzz1AX3NjY2z" Doesn't mean that at all,,, or I'd have said that directly. Let me break it down for ya again. 1) agree that rainbow examples of coins have existed for years..... heck, I said there has always been a toned coin market,, how could I say that if none existed. 2) agree that not all rainbow examples are created by coin doctors,, as the market was not really significant 10+ years ago I wouldn't think there was much motivation for the doctors to operate. 3) market is significant, there is significant $$$$$$ opportunity for good doctors to create, slab (or not slab) and sell toned coins. 4) #3 is occuring in greater frequency..... 4.1 - check ebay and let me know how many raw toned coins are for sale... do you think there were that many on the market 10+ years ago. 4.2 - there are admitted cases of AT's being slabbed, and certified as NT or 'market acceptable'..... so: 4.2.1 - it can happen... the supply "is" ARTIFICIALLY growning. 4.2.2 - it does happen.... you've been around long enough to know that. 5) with increasing supply = ,,, well I'll just say ECON-101
Paul I'll tell ya what, after this post I'm done arguing with you about it. You are going to believe what you want to believe no matter what anyone says. But the fact of the matter is this, widespread interest in toned coins did not exist 10 years ago. Yes there were always some who sought out toned coins, and I have always agreed with this. But the first, the very first, auction where toned coins held any interest at all was the Garret collection in 1979 - 31 years ago. That is documented history. And it was after that auction that artificially toned coins began to show up in the marketplace hoping to capitalize on the success of the Garret sale. But it took another 20 years before interest in toned coins became widespread. As for what David Hall says, well I'd put about as much stock in what David Hall says as I would the guy selling Rolex watches in Times Square. Now let me give you a quote or two by Dave Bowers about toned coins - "If you ask an old timer, coins with such hues were virtually nonexistant 30 or more years ago." But you can believe anybody you want. Instead of trying to prove your point, I know I'm not going to try and prove mine any longer, (and I ask everybody to do this so you know for yourselves) go ask dealers that have been around for 20 or 30 years if there was widespread interest in toned coins more than 10 years ago. You know what they'll tell you ? No ! And Paul, I made a point of asking dealers at the FUN show yesterday, lots of them. Guess what ? They said no too.
Doug, Do you think I argue with you just for the sake of arguing with you? When you make a post that is incorrect, I feel compelled to point it out. I think you need to recognize that what you just said in this post and what you said in your orignal post are completely different. Compare the two statements. Here is your original post: Now compare that to your statement in your most recent post: You stated that before 2002, it would be hard to find a handful of collectors who were fans much less exclusive buyers of toned coins. Now Doug, that statement is simply not true, and what's more, you know it. You have heard me speak about Appalachian toned Jefferson Nickels. You should also be aware that these coins surfaced and were graded in late 2000. This is a fact evidenced by their residence in generation 8 NGC holders that were only used for about 4 weeks in August to September 2000 according to Conder's research. Here is an example. You are also aware that these coins are widely considered to be AT. My question to you is why would someone AT coins if there was no market and only a handful of collectors interested in the coins? When the Appalachian Jeffersons hit the market, they were extremely hot and the MS67's sold for $250-$350 each according to TomB who was one of the original buyers from Andy Kimmel. In your most recent post, you stated that widespread interest in toned coins did not exist 10 years ago. That is correct. It was a niche market prior to the turn of the century and the advent of the internet in combination with advances in photographic technology cause the market to explode. But to say that there was no market for toned coins prior to 2002 is inaccurate, irresponsible, and tantamount to "shooting from the hip" or "blowing smoke" and expecting your reputation to carry the statement. I find it ironic that you basically refer to David Hall as some kind of snake oil salesman. The two of you are guilty of the same offenses. You both "blow smoke" from time to time but that does not diminish yours (or his) knowledge of numismatics. Regarding the Bowers quote, I would appreciate if either you gave the full quote or provided a reference for where the quote was taken. In other words, I think you are taking his words out of context. BTW Doug, Shane already provided you with a list of dealers and collectors who have been involved with rainbow toned coins for decades. Perhaps you were so busy trying to prove yourself right, you forgot to read anything posted by someone else other than yourself. But I guess we can add TomB and Andy Kimmel to the list.
Just a note about QDB quote about coins with these hues being non existant 30 years ago. I think the release of Morgans by the GSA pretty much disproves this quote and the fact that there were still bags of morgans sitting in closets and bank vaults also points to why there are more seen now than then as the battle Creek, Binion and Continental bank hoards have been released since then. Finally as has been said countless times....the internet, better imaging techniques and of course strong prices have also brought a lot of these monster toners out into the open. I have zero doubts that it has brough out coin doctors as well and that there are some out their good enough to get their creations into legit holders but I think the percentage of AT coins getting into PCGS/NGC holders is much smaller than the press would have you believe. Mark salzberg addressed this during the NGC luncheon and while he didn't specifically mention PCGS, he did alluded to the fact that part of the hype was created to sell a new product...maybe you have heard of Secure plus and the sniffer technology? It would behove PCGS to publicize and hype a problem which does exist but maybe not to the degree that they are making out to be as there are profit motives. Whether you want the market to be alive and strong or not...there is no denying that it is and I saw countless sales at FUN that prove just that...as a matter of fact Ron Sirna sold 4 of his best rainbow Morgans to Brandon kelly (JohnEcash coins) and while I don't know the exact price paid i will tell you it was probably in excess of $40k and I may be low....and that's for 4 common date toned Morgans? I think the best advice which I have posted over and over is...do not invest in coins, buy what you like and what you can afford to buy and enjoy. If you want to invest in coins then I certainly wouldn't suggest common date Morgans toned or untoned....you might want to go after key dates in popular series.
