Tips for Hunting $20 Saints

When looking at $20 Saint Gaudens, what do you look for when trying to determine if it is a true MS63 or MS64?

(Please keep in mind that I'm using ANA grading standards and not market grading)

Obverse
1) Wear on torch (above hand)
2) Wear on forehead and/or nose
3) Wear on left breast and/or left knee

Reverse
4) Wear on wing tips
5) Wear on beak
6) Wear on top of eagle's head
7) Wear on eagle's breast

Personal preferences include things like a good strike, clean fields, little or no water spots, and of course, good luster.

If I'm asking the wrong questions, or not enough, please let me know.

Also, if there are any other tips or "gotchas" to watch for, please add your comments.

Thanks.

 

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I say ignore the grade on any slabbed example. They have always graded them all over the place, so look for a nice clean coin and go with it.

 

Your name is Doug, right? ;-)

 

@Kirkuleez , I totally agree. But it's where I need to start. I.e., I walk up to a dealer and ask to see his 63's and 64's. Right off the bat, I can see wear on what seems like 80-90% of the TPG-slabbed coins out there.

@micbraun , yep... you got that right ;-)

 

Number 1 for me are spots. When I see a copper spot on any gold coin I move on.

 

Why don't you like copper spot WLH22?
They are a sign of originality and when they are decent why to avoid them?

 

Do copper spots tend to get worse over time?

 

I don't believe so.
Those coins are 100 years old and stood the test of time.

 

There are more important knockout factors in this series than small copper spots.
I mean things like hairlines, light cleaning, rim dings and gouges, which happened after the minting process.
Copper spots result from improperly mixed alloy and this is no mistreating of the coin at all.

 

From the auctions I have watched and bid on the spotted coins almost always sell for less. I do have one $2.5 Lib with a very small spot by a star but I have since upgraded it to MS64+ and will sell the spotted one at some point. I have never sold a coin so that day may never come though.

I do take all your other points into consideration as well. I do not buy coins with hairlines, rim dings, gouges, etc. I am not building the entire series for these (outside of the $2.5 Indians). For $2.5's, $5's, $10's, and $20's I am just buying 4-5 of the best I can find in MS63/64. For me that means no spots.

 

WLH22, I accept your opinion.
For me, rim dings, are a knockout

 

I totally agree with you on this. I guess for me there is a 1A and 1B on my list of things I don't accept.

 

Look at the Big Picture first: is it a nice coin ? Does it have eye appeal ?

Major Imperfections: No huge gouges...scratches...dents on rims.

High Points: Look for rub on high points like Liberty's breast, Eagles wings, etc.

I do think buying a graded coin is worth it here, unless you are hoping to get lucky and put some time into learning how to grade. Even folks here who have been looking at coins for decades disagree from 2-3 (or more) levels on some coins. That can make for big $$$ changes if you guess wrong.

 

Is there a reason you are trying to split-the-difference between MS-63's and MS-64's ?

 

Just trying to learn. The goal is to differentiate a "true 64" from one that is graded a 64 but really isn't (according to ANA standards).

 

Plenty of stuff on the web and the Official ANA Grading book is also very good.

But splitting the difference between 1 grade, at any MS or non-MS level, is very very tough. It's subjective and unless you spend thousands of hours looking at the coins in question you won't have much of a leg up on a coin flip. JMHO.

Are 64's your target ? Why not 65's ?

 

I have the ANA book. It's very good.

Trying to find the "sweet spot". Some people think it's 64, others 62. I'm still trying to decide where I get the most "bang for the buck".

 

I guess that depends. PERSONALLY...for investment purposes...I think the MS-65 grade is the one you want to target for commons. Below that, the commonality is too high to add numismatic value above and beyond spot bullion.

For most of the Saint-Gaudens series, the MS-65 level is attainable for most coins, though the premiums can rise alot for the rarer coins (Top 20). If you go too high, say MS66 or MS67, the price jump for even the 1924/27/28s can quadruple or quintuple the price above that of the MS-65.

 

I agree, whenever I am looking at common years including 1908 no motto, I am wanting the MS 65's. I have seen Liberty Coin list a lot in the 1700 range and I was wondering if any of you have had experience with this company? I just do not have enough confidence to pull the trigger because they post stock photos and I am worried that I might get screwed.

 

*NEVER* buy from stock photos.