Thoughts Please

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I don't see the confusion. In the other thread I said that a coin which later was found out to be doctored under AT should be returned. I was assuming this coin was simply cleaned, and anyone who looked at it would be able to view that fact. It was not hidden damage, which was exposed later after conservation efforts were attempted.

I do not think that simply based upon a TPG opinion of cleaning that anyone, collector or dealer, has a right of return. However, in the other case it was proven by NCS the coin was fraudulently doctored, which to me is tantamount to adding a mintmark, or changing a date, of a coin. In that case I believe right of return should be the same as for fakes, ie forever.

Chris

Edit: Short version, to me, if there is hidden damage that was hidden intentionally to deceive, a buyer does not have the ability to judge the coin at time of purchase, therefor should have a right to return once the damage is discovered. A coin which does not have anything hidden a buyer has the ability to judge for himself so therefor no return rights should exist. All of this is supposing the coin is not a fake of course.

There are legal precedents for this logic. Many times the right to sue starts the day the person realizes they have been damaged, not the day the transaction occurred.

Of course, I very well may be the only collector who feels this way. I have been known to be "different", right Doug?

 

I haven't read the other replies yet. But under the circumstances as described, you are fully justified in refusing to take the coin back. And the dealer was full of bologna in saying "it's normal to allow returns like he wants to do".

Welcome to the forum. And since we don't know each other, I will tell you that my above comments were based on having been a coin dealer since 1979.

 

Just for fun, I will list a few different scenarios that could happen. If you could humor me, just let me know which ones you believe should be eligible for return, and which ones not. I will notate my feelings next to each. Maybe it will, if not be logical, at least explain my thoughts clearer:

1. Forgery (returnable)
2. Altered Date/MM (returnable)
3. Damage intentionally hidden, by either putty or AT (returnable)
4. TPG or someone else declaring cleaned (non-returnable)
5. Grading dispute not clearly written in purchase agreement (non-returnable)
6. Damage not seen by buyer, but not hidden (non-returnable)

We can very well disagree sir, but that is how I delineate between what should be returnable to a respected dealer and what is not. A person pays a premium many times to acquire from a reputable dealer, (money that is usually worth it), and part of that is the extra protection you should expect.

Having you and Mark disagree with me has led me to second guess my opinion, but at least right now still associate hidden damage as equivalant more to a changed date, (in that it was intention fraud, not just how a coin aged), more than cleaning or the like, and simply still would expect my dealer to accept a return. I very well could be wrong, but its how I view it at least. I would worry about this hobby if major, respected dealers were selling puttied or "fixed" coins to collectors and simply telling them tough luck when they find they have bought heavily doctored, nearly valueless, coins.

Chris

 

I feel you don't have to return any money.

But, I was wondering if you had pictures of the coin before you sold it?
And can you get a picture of the coin in the genuine holder?

 

My initial thoughts would be that you are not obligated to give the dealer any refund or concession whatsoever. Going solely with what you have stated, I would say that he shouldn't even ask you for a refund. However, I wasn't there, and I don't know exactly what transpired, and have not heard the other side of the story, or know what the dealer felt transpired. It's always possible that one party did not understand the deal the same way the other did, and this is no slam on the OP or his/her integrity.

If I were you, I would ask myself where I wanted the relationship with this dealer to go, then make up my mind what to do.
The ball is in your court though, and I wish you the best.

Chuck

 

My thanks to those who have provided me with advice on this situation. I appreciate it.

Chris: No, it is not my intention to do business further with this dealer. I have in the past bought a coin or ten that I later decided was a mistake, including on one occasion a coin that was sold as a specific grade that when submitted could not make that grade. I never asked to return any of them, I examined them and made my decisions to buy. I would not ask anyone else to pay for my 'regrets' and I am frankly shocked that a dealer is asking me to pay for his.

Lost Dutchman: The coin was a 1911 D 2.5$. The transaction was for my 2.5 Indian set.

Onejinx: I am sorry but I have no pictures of the coin before I sold it, nor any pictures of it now. I bought it at a brick and mortar store, and sold it sitting across the table from the dealer, so there was never any reason to photograph it before I sold it I guess. He has the coin now, so my photographing it would not be possible.

 

I agree. If the coin had been fake I can see him demanding a refund. But, he is a dealer and should be able to grade the coin and determine if it has problems prior to making a deal with the seller. If not, it is his loss. That's the risks he runs in the profession he is in.

I'll bet if you bought a raw coin from him and had it come back from PCGS as cleaned he wouldn't give you your money back.

 

+2 or 3 or 4..... We need a "I agree with You" emotion......

 

Very well put. No one is guaranteed to profit from every coin he or she buys, and the person selling it often knows more about it than you do.

Like my GA coin friend often says "Sometimes you are the Fire Hydrant, sometimes you are the dog"

 

He checked the coin out, but if he felt that it was a fake, then you, not him, would have be holding a bad coin.
After he bought the coin, and sent it to PCGS, it's his coin. If you had no conditions as to the the coin's grade at the time of sale, then it was up to him to grade it. It's apparent that he is not up to grading a coin, and not standing up to his decision. I would not do business with him again.

 

I use a similar quote, "Sometimes you are the pigeon and sometimes you are the statue." =)

 

I like, "Some days you get the elevator, other days you get the shaft."