Thoughts on this St. Gaudens double eagle

Thanks GD.....

I have that book on my WishList....I am not sure what's in it on Liberty DE's and Saint-Gaudens DE's, but I figured the books from Bowers (gonna get) and Burdette (already got it) are probably much more comprehensive on the coins I have interest in.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

Then there's this one that showed up on the Bay this evening -- I had no idea you could get any double eagle in MS68 at any price, never mind less than the price of a mid-range car!

 

Jeff, I believe the 1908 NM is the only one that is that "affordable" because of the Wells Fargo Hoard swelling the ranks of 66's, 67's, and 68'a.

 

There were no PCGS-graded 68's the year before the Wells Fargo coins hit the market. Maybe NGC had a few. After the Wells hoard hit, it was over 100.

EDIT: Actually, now that I think about it, that NGC 68 must be a non-Wells coin before the hoard hit.

 

I believe it's difficult to find any MS68 U.S. Gold "Classic" coin with a "Premium Quality" rating when having perceived "rub" on left Obverse leg, right Obverse breast, "bag marks" and possible scratch in the Obverse field.

It's difficult to properly evaluate condition without a 10x-25x "magnifier", and an "in hand" inspection. I extracted a similar scarce date Gold coin from my inventory, without bag rub and disturbed fields, having a miniscule singular scratch that generally can't be seen with the human eye in a tangential photo, or unless rotating under a bright light. It has a PCGS "Genuine", Scratch - Details rating.

Who Knows?

JMHO

 

Are you saying the coin above has those defects ? I can't tell from the photo, it won't zoom high enough on my PC.

For sure.....

 

When possibly interested in a 5 digit sum coin without close-up coin inspection capabilities, I'm concerned about "buy-holder" sales attempt, so I use various software to spread the pixels, viewing the coin rather than the seemingly intended holder. This auction however has a feature allowing a partial "zoom".

In post #62, if you left-click on the obverse image, I believe you can see with your naked eye, that which I've described. 6th CW ray-tip radiused scratch up to ~last hair strand, through ding midway, rub on right teet, rub/dings below left knee, ding @ tip - 8th CCW ray-tip.

Otherwise, copy the .jpeg image and spread the Obverse coin image pixels with "Windows Photo Viewer" to better view fields and devices.

JMHO

 

Yep. Looks like the 1924 in that grade is almost four times as much, and the rest are all six-figure coins (except of course the HR lettered edge ).

 

Yup, thanks ! I got the Pop Report from before the Wells hoard hit.

There were zero 68's.....3 MS-67's.....and just under 1,300 MS-66's (this is for 1996). Now you have over 100 MS-68's and tons of 67's and 66's.

 

OUCH! Can you imagine buying a coin like that right before a hoard hits the market?

https://blog.davidlawrence.com/the-1908-no-motto-and-the-wells-fargo-hoard/

If the one in the auction can be verified not to be part of the hoard, doesn't that make it... unique, and therefore deserving of a hefty premium on THAT basis?

 

Jeff, I can't find a quote for a 1908 NM MS-68 before the Well hoard hit (I have MS60/63/65 quotes in the Burdette book), but I am sure that would have taken a hit.

However....best I can tell, the MS-65's and even MS-66's had enough supply such that there really wasn't a big dropoff in price. My guess is that the MS-66's and the 67's took a hit percentage-wise but they weren't that expensive overall that the absolute $$$ value was huge. But I need to do some more research on the >MS-65 levels.

I think they traded pretty much as generics BEFORE the WF Hoard...and the strike quality and overall appearance was at the bottom of the Saint-Gaudens rankings....so very few people felt the need to pay even market value for a 1908 NM common...let alone a premium. They were sort of the opposite of the 1923-D's for type collectors.

 

Jeff, what would be interesting is if the pre-WF hoard of 1908 NM's were graded "on a curve" because they generally had mediocre features...and thus, an MS-66 from the pre-Wells coins would be much lower in appearance than an MS-66 from the Wells hoard.

If there's an answer, it might be in the SAINT-GAUDENS DOUBLE EAGLE (Burdette) book, maybe even that enclyopedia that GD listed above. I'll check Roger's book later today when I get a chance and report back. Off the top of my head, I don't recall any dichotomy mentioned in grading the 2 different 1908 NM's. But I read the book last May so maybe I forgot.

 

Burdette's book on SAINTS pretty much has the same Gillio Wells section as Bower's Guide Book. So not much more detail to help there.

So...best as I can tell....there wasn't a dropoff in either 1908 NM Saints for MS-65 or below. They probably were mostly sold to the investor class instead of the collector class, like in those infomercials I see. If there's a discount for bulk purchases from the official price, then anyone selling them like on TV could improve their margins a bit as opposed to a dealer who might not want to get stuck with some.

Scanning the Heritage archives, it does appear there was a drop in MS-66 and above pricing from a $2,500-$3,000 range closer to $1,750. There aren't alot of data points but it does make sense: one sale noted that for MS-66 the Population was 53, with 2 finer. Those numbers both EXPLODED higher once the Wells Hoard hit. Since the 66's and above had scarcity premiums embedded in them and 65's and below did not, it makes sense that the hit was in the higher grades.

Would love to hear from any dealers back then who can cooborate my number guestimates. Not even sure the Greysheet could help as they usually would just quote MS-65's...unless they had a commentary on 1908 NM pricing across the spectrum following the release of the 19,900 coins.

 

FYI....an MS-68 NM Wells Fargo Saint ends bidding tonight over at GC:

https://www.greatcollections.com/Co...e-No-Motto-Wells-Fargo-Nevada-Gold-PCGS-MS-68

The holder is before GD's 2004 line of demarcation for looser grading, but I am not thrilled with the black spots on the reverse, the white stuff pouring out of the right eye of Liberty (assuming it's not a reflection), and the scratches across the date and at 5:30 PM on the rim (assuming it's not on the plastic).

Solid for an MS68 IMO, but with these blemishes (?), wondering if if it's better as a 67.