Thoughts on this St. Gaudens double eagle

I WANT the gold bugs to know about numismatics and quasi-numismatics like Liberty's and Saints !!

I'm well-versed in the financial field and have followed gold on-and-off for over 40 years....and even I didn't know about Saints until about 11 years ago (I think it was the 2009 UHR that spurred me on to research).

Even though a client or two of mine was buying gold in the 1990's -- and mostly Saints -- I never inquired exactly WHAT he/they were buying, just said to make sure they bought stuff close to the bullion price because I knew that they (Blanchard) wanted to sell them the higher-priced numismatics.

I could kick myself for not only not buying more gold at the time (cheap) but also the prices on lots of Saints (even with a much higher premium back then) was alot less thanks to the lower gold price.

 

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Interesting! I believe ~15 years earlier Heritage was established, where there weren't any charges above bid for the buyers. The selection of Double Eagles that I was able to purchase from them in those years was amazing.

I was selling scarce/key dates through coin publications, and had a steady group of people looking for uncommon dates. Fortunately, people were conservative, and reasonable bids took the majority of coins Heritage offered.

The company you mentioned was offering coins it couldn't deliver, and I was one of those receiving a refund after some time. I believe it was thought that they could easily find a coin after they sold same, but that apparently didn't work.

It appears that scarce dates/mint-marks are becoming difficult to locate at the prices quoted in the dreamers publication that most sellers carry when "dealing".

Even low grade 1904 and 1924 certified Double Eagles are commanding appreciably above the past quoted premiums.

JMHO

 

I just joined HA in 2019. Ebay for years before with mostly low-priced coins and/or bullion but my few Saints were from my LCS.

Really ? So they were in effect "short" (common) Saints and couldn't find them ?

I'm surprised...unless they just didn't want to pay up or worse bet on falling gold prices dragging the price lower and it instead moved higher.

Maybe the market for gold and/or Saints moved against them, hence why they couldn't deliver? I'll ask my clients if they ever got the runaround.

I've got charts showing the premiums on generic MS64/65 Saints and it's been coming DOWN for years. If it's risen of late -- probably in relation to the rising bullion price -- that could explain things.

Common Saints used as bullion substitutes with small premiums for numismatic value can see erratic pricing when the underlying price of bullion moves up a few hundred dollars as we have seen of late. Sellers don't know if they should just tack on the extra bullion price (the premium thus FALLS) or keep the premium the same (price rises FASTER than the raw bullion amount).

One thing is clear: the moves on the up and downside tend to move further than expected over time. And with sellers quick to jump the price in relation to rising gold prices but prices STICKY TO THE DOWNSIDE when gold is falling, the price as I said can be erratic and move faster or slower in relation to the underlying price of gold.

 

Instead of talking about generalization charts for st. gaudens, which have no specificity, you might review the new dreamers CAC rare coin market review. It shows numerous MS63 generic coins at $1770, including the scarce 1923D.

While talking with your clients, you might ask if anyone has several of those 1923D PCGS MS63, 11D, 14D, 14S, 15S PCGS CAC coins they would like to sell @ $1770. I could use whatever they have.

JMHO

 

Must have missed this or forgot to respond when you posted IMrich, better late than never, right ?

Why call the 1923-D rare, it's not. And certainly not in MS63 condition.

I'm not a dealer, IMR, just an occasional buyer.

 

I'm always receptive to constructive correction, as I'm fallible, hoping that someone will objectively teach me something unknown. Often it's the critic lesser informed.

I believe it was stated/posted that coin was to be found scarce (i.e. not rare?), which I believe eBay, the most likely source for "generic" coins will confirm: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fr...3.m570.l1313&_nkw=1923D+CAC+MS63+ST.&_sacat=0

Let's see the comparison with a common 1907 St.: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fr...TitleDesc=0&_osacat=0&_odkw=1923D+CAC+MS63+ST.

Your STATEMENTS are normally authoritative, not "hearsay", but factual, as would be presented to a court jury. It was just assumed (you know what is said) you must have acquired the knowledge from vast personal transactions, as I. Please pardon my robe attire, but thanks for the challenge!

JMHO

 

The 1908 No Motto $20 gold was the first gold piece that I bought from a professional coin dealer. I made that purchase circa 1965. My first gold coin was an 1854 Type II gold dollar that I bought from my mother's cleaning lady. It was genuine, but only graded VF with a weak date.

Here is my 1908 $20 gold which I sill have. It is in an NGC MS-64 holder.



I would strongly urge you to stick with NGC and PCGS certified gold coins when you are a novice collector. The dangers of ending up with a counterfeit or problem coin are simply too great.

There were many counterfeit American gold coins floating around the market when I bought this piece in 1965. A lot of them were made in Lebanon. They contained the right or even a little more gold than the real thing, but they were fake. To me a fake coin dated 100 years ago that was made yesterday is not fun. It takes all of the joy out it. The certified coin might cost you a little more, but to me it’s worth it.

 

You beat me to it. I was thinking the same. Relative weight for size dropping from the eject chutes coupled with storage in bags being moved around from time to time over the decades can explain the heavy contact marks.

 

I got a 2010 AGE about 8-9 years ago. It cost me about $1,300. I bought it RAW without a mint mark. Any idea how much something like that would cost today. I'm more careful today, but I still like my 2010. It was my major start in collecting.

 

Very nice coin. Obviously, you have one that isn't a "Wells Fargo Hoard" coins.

Do you or anybody recall what the reaction was to such a large hoard (19,900 coins) price-wise for the 1908 NM ? I believe it already traded like a common, though not at the MS-66 and higher levels....the TPGs had been around for 12 or 13 years.....and the Internet had just started in transmitting information.

So price transparency should have been pretty quick relative to the 1980's or earlier.

Does anybody have a Population Census from a Red Book from the mid-1990's for the 1908 NM ?

 

I don't know what you mean by a "population census" in the Red Book. The Red Book only lists mintages and prices with the number known for some very rare items, like an 1804 Dollar and 1913 Liberty Nickel.

The 1908 No Motto $20 gold never has gotten much respect. It's always been a common coin, and some people don't like it because it often has indifferent luster and less than sharp strikes.

 

My Double Eagle Red Book (by Bowers) has estimated certification numbers for each Saint by grade condition. Below it is Bower's estimate of the TOTAL population (including ones never submitted, i.e, all surviving coins).

Agreed.....but I think the Wells Hoard has improved striking features over the non-Wells coins.

 

Jim, It's a bullion coin, correct? So, wouldn't it be "spot" + the premium? Certainly less today then yesterday.

 

Thanks.

 

Nice post, Doug. I was surprised too. The Vickers, Brinell and Rockwell scales are measures of indentation hardness. Scratch hardness is measured on the Mohs (10 point) or Ridgway (15 point) scales. Both gold and silver rate 2.5-3 on both scales, which is pretty soft.

Cal

Link: https://www.jewelrynotes.com/the-mohs-scale-of-hardness-for-metals-why-it-is-important/

 

The price of gold was $1,150 to $1,400 in 2010. Seems like you got a pretty decent price.

 

John, my apology....I wrote "Red Book" referring to the Whitman Book by Bowers. You thought I was referring to the annual Red Book published since the 1940's. Sorry !

I thought if someone had the 1st Edition of the Bowers Double Eagle Red Book (the 2nd was published in 2004) it was probably going to be before the Wells Fargo Hoard had been found.... but now I am not sure if the DE Red Book I have is a 2nd edition or 1st edition. Bower's references a 1982 book in his Forward but I don't see anything regarding the 2004 book I have being a 2nd Edition. It would be 22 years between updates which is a long time. So maybe what I have is the 1st and ONLY edition.

Anyway, my question remains....I wanted to see if a population census (with prices would be great) existed for the 1908 No Motto BEFORE the Wells Fargo hoard was found. So 1997 or earlier.

 

Well, I consulted The Bible -- Roger Burdette's SAINT-GAUDENS DOUBLE EAGLES magnus opus -- and got some of the relevant price information.

Appears that the coins traded at generic common MS65 prices before and after the hoard was found. All such coins in 1997 traded at rich premiums to the spot gold price (~$330/oz.), selling for just over $1,150 for the NM's and $1,000 for 1924's, 1927's, etc.

So amazingly, the hoard didn't impact the price level. Amazing.....

 

Yes, Whitman calls that series “Red Books,” which is confusing. I guess it’s a marketing thing. I generally buy one edition of those books and don’t go back for the later ones.