Reply to Thread

Message:: [QUOTE="Insider, post: 3525681, member: 24314"]Lehigh96, posted: "This conversation is basically just going around in a circle.  There are a group of guys on this forum who are black and white players in a world of grey. [That was turned the color gray to take advantage of and dupe folks who never learned to grade for themselves]  The philosophy of "wear is wear" and that any coin showing high point friction therefore must be considered to be a circulated coin is about as black and white as it gets.  It doesn't consider the fact that the high point friction is generated in the exact same way that contact marks are generated, by coin to coin contact. [Actually, this is nonsense.  I've opened several original bags of Morgan dollars and I DON"T RECALL EVEN ONE BANGGED UP COIN THAT HAD ANY ABRASIVE FRICTION ON THEIR HIGH POINTS!  NOT ONE!] These same people readily accept that coins banging into each other while in bags, hoppers, coin counters etc. will have contact marks that were not there at the time the coin was minted, rather happened during transit or distribution after leaving the coining press.  But when it comes to high point friction from coins sliding over top of each other, or from a contact in a roll, all of a sudden the resultant damage is as you have called it is "special" and the coin must suffer the punitive fate of being relegated to AU status even though it may have been freshly plucked from a sealed mint bag.[Any knowledgeable numismatist can tell the difference between stacking/roll friction (OK) and slightly worn coins with "cabinet friction" as many refer to slider "Unc's"] The practice of allowing for roll friction is limited to a very few series and the areas in question where the friction appears is very well defined.  It is the EXCEPTION to the rule that wear precludes a coin from being uncirculated.  But rather than accepting the "exception" they drone on about how the TPGs ignore their own grading standards.  It is, in a word, exhausting! To all the guys who say "wear is wear," why is this Morgan Dollar not graded AU, I clearly see wear above the ear? Easy, because it is graded commercially (value based) by a major TPGS.  You was robbed too.  That's a 64 in the image due to a weak strike.  I guess it was "net graded" down to 63 because there is actual friction wear on it.  In the 70's, a coin as this would have been graded MS-65,flat strike.  <img src="https://i.imgur.com/kCFOEVK.jpg" class="bbCodeImage wysiwygImage" alt="" unselectable="on" /> Jaelus, posted: "You didn't answer my question.  My question was not one asking you if you knew the difference between very light high point rub and a hit. My question is why is it important to YOU to distinguish between them." Because since 1972, I have been grading coins professionally at several TPGS's and learning every day. <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie2" alt=";)" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /> For the first fifteen years of my career, the accepted <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie26" alt=":bookworm:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /> definition of Uncirculated (Mint State): NO TRACE OF WEAR was accepted by the coin industry and so very important to ME and our customers.  Jaelus continued: "I ask because I can plainly observe both of these detrimental surface conditions on a coin, and in many cases the high point rub aesthetically bothers me much less but it affects the grade so much more severely. I understand what the difference is between them, despite your assumption that anyone who disagrees with you does so out of ignorance. I understand how it is graded. I just happen to disagree." You know what they say about <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie30" alt=":bucktooth:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /> people who assume things right?  I'm not the grading expert and I don't EVER claim to be.  I enjoy discussing grading in the abstract, ideal, and also in the real world.  You and everyone reading this is free to disagree with anything I write.  We (you, me, and the others) learn from disagreements.  What's funny to me is that very often we all are saying the same things in different ways. <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie60" alt=":kiss:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /><img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie60" alt=":kiss:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /> Jaelus believes: "Penalize coins based on the severity of their surface conditions, whatever they may be. Who cares if a coin is technically mint state or not if it is the observable quality of a 64? Just call it a 64. Keep it simple." It is simple. Coins below MS are mostly graded based on the amount of their design that is missing (unless you are one of those <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie5" alt=":confused:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /><img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie98" alt=":wacky:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /><img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie96" alt=":vomit:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /> "net graders").  Coins above MS are graded based on other factors! Jaelus, posted: "Not only is the purpose of grading a collectible to determine market value, but determining value is the original intent of the Sheldon scale!" Yes, the Sheldon Scale tried to relate a coin's condition to its value.  However, IMHO there is a difference that most folks never give a thought to:   A. Given a Large cent, one could use the Sheldon Scale to SUGGEST A VALUE for that coin.  This is clearly explained in his book. B.  A TPGS determines that a rare 1804 dollar (graded as low as EF previously and still in the same worn condition) is worth $3,000,000 and therefore SHOULD BE VALUE GRADED AS MS-63! If the product of grading is a label with a list of features that require an expert to price, you might as well not submit the coin for grading at all. This sounds about as useful as slabbing a book with a label that has a summary of the content. Ideal grading should produce a single number representing a ranked market value and nothing more." Unfortunately <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie23" alt=":bigtears:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /><img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie23" alt=":bigtears:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /> (fortunately for you all <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie7" alt=":p" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" />), I lost the rest of my comments as the computer was acting up.  I'm going to leave it as is. PS Jaelus, you have made me think of a few new approaches to teaching - BIG THANK YOU!<img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie8" alt=":D" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /> [/QUOTE]

Create my FREE Account!

Log in or Sign up

Reply to Thread

Useful Searches