Log in or Sign up
Coin Talk
Home
Forums
>
Coin Forums
>
US Coins Forum
>
Thoughts on cabinet friction from a professional grader.
>
Reply to Thread
Message:
<p>[QUOTE="Insider, post: 3503866, member: 24314"]Morgandude11, posted: "I will simplify the issue greatly. Cabinet friction= storage. It is no different than Morgans making contact with each other, and causing marks. The coins haven’t circulated, therefore, they are MS. The whole spiel overcomplicstes what I see as a very straightforward issue."</p><p><br /></p><p><i><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 179)">Sometimes "simple" is the same as "clueless" which you are not!</span></i></p><p><br /></p><p><i><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 179)">"Cabinet Friction" was a term concocted by coin dealers to sell slightly circulated coins that were never near a cabinet. Cabinet friction is abrasive wear. When MS was defined as "no trace of wear," it allowed some "wiggle room."</span></i></p><p><br /></p><p>desertgem, posted: "Cabinet friction dates back to when well financed collectors had their best coins in wood cabinets with felt or velvet cloth such as the Eliasburg collection."</p><p><br /></p><p><i><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 179)">The image shows his coins were in custom plastic holders.</span></i></p><p><br /></p><p>Lehigh96, posted: "Cabinet friction is used synonymously with roll friction. So while finding a coin with cabinet friction might be difficult, finding coins with roll friction is extremely easy, especially in some series that are plagued by it (eg Saints & SLQs)."</p><p><br /></p><p><img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie11" alt=":rolleyes:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /><img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie46" alt=":facepalm:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /> <i><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 179)">Cabinet friction MAY BE used synonymously with roll friction, but ONLY by confused or uninformed folks who cannot tell the difference!</span></i> </p><p><br /></p><p>"The TPGs differentiate between wear and roll friction by looking for some evidence of contact in the fields of the coins rather than isolated high point wear."</p><p><br /></p><p><i><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 179)">Good in theory and many old-timers like to say "clean fields = BU." Unfortunately, large coin such as Morgan dollars can be worn down into the AU range and have full luster in their fields. See many hundreds of them a week like that.</span></i></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>"I have had this argument at length with Doug several time in the past on this forum. I don't need to re-litigate it again, but the short version of my point is, do you want the following coins to have the same grade?</p><p><br /></p><p><img src="https://i.imgur.com/RRvOtOJ.jpg" class="bbCodeImage wysiwygImage" alt="" unselectable="on" /></p><p><img src="https://i.imgur.com/mydMY1Y.jpg" class="bbCodeImage wysiwygImage" alt="" unselectable="on" /></p><p><img src="https://i.imgur.com/tbZbMHs.jpg" class="bbCodeImage wysiwygImage" alt="" unselectable="on" /></p><p><img src="https://i.imgur.com/ngidMsW.jpg" class="bbCodeImage wysiwygImage" alt="" unselectable="on" /></p><p><br /></p><p>Both coins show friction on the knee and breast, but there is an undeniable difference in quality between the two coins. If you believe that "wear is wear" and that any coin with high point friction is relegated to AU, then both of these coins would be graded AU58. Under the TPG methodology that I agree with, the first coin would be graded either AU58 if they think there is field friction or low MS whereas the second coin would be graded premium gem.</p><p><br /></p><p>So my question to you is, do you think these coins should be the same grade?"</p><p><br /></p><p><i><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 179)">This is a very silly choice of coins. The top coin is AU and IMO, it will be graded low MS by any TPGS.</span></i></p><p><i><br /></i></p><p><i><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 179)">The bottom coin is FULL MS and the only crazy numismatists in the world who would call it AU are you, me, and Doug. <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie8" alt=":D" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /> Not, wishing to be called crazy, over this "gem," I'll go with the MS guys on this coin at any major TPGS. <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie7" alt=":p" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /></span></i>[/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>
[QUOTE="Insider, post: 3503866, member: 24314"]Morgandude11, posted: "I will simplify the issue greatly. Cabinet friction= storage. It is no different than Morgans making contact with each other, and causing marks. The coins haven’t circulated, therefore, they are MS. The whole spiel overcomplicstes what I see as a very straightforward issue." [I][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 179)]Sometimes "simple" is the same as "clueless" which you are not![/COLOR][/I] [I][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 179)]"Cabinet Friction" was a term concocted by coin dealers to sell slightly circulated coins that were never near a cabinet. Cabinet friction is abrasive wear. When MS was defined as "no trace of wear," it allowed some "wiggle room."[/COLOR][/I] desertgem, posted: "Cabinet friction dates back to when well financed collectors had their best coins in wood cabinets with felt or velvet cloth such as the Eliasburg collection." [I][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 179)]The image shows his coins were in custom plastic holders.[/COLOR][/I] Lehigh96, posted: "Cabinet friction is used synonymously with roll friction. So while finding a coin with cabinet friction might be difficult, finding coins with roll friction is extremely easy, especially in some series that are plagued by it (eg Saints & SLQs)." :rolleyes::facepalm: [I][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 179)]Cabinet friction MAY BE used synonymously with roll friction, but ONLY by confused or uninformed folks who cannot tell the difference![/COLOR][/I] "The TPGs differentiate between wear and roll friction by looking for some evidence of contact in the fields of the coins rather than isolated high point wear." [I][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 179)]Good in theory and many old-timers like to say "clean fields = BU." Unfortunately, large coin such as Morgan dollars can be worn down into the AU range and have full luster in their fields. See many hundreds of them a week like that.[/COLOR][/I] "I have had this argument at length with Doug several time in the past on this forum. I don't need to re-litigate it again, but the short version of my point is, do you want the following coins to have the same grade? [IMG]https://i.imgur.com/RRvOtOJ.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]https://i.imgur.com/mydMY1Y.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]https://i.imgur.com/tbZbMHs.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]https://i.imgur.com/ngidMsW.jpg[/IMG] Both coins show friction on the knee and breast, but there is an undeniable difference in quality between the two coins. If you believe that "wear is wear" and that any coin with high point friction is relegated to AU, then both of these coins would be graded AU58. Under the TPG methodology that I agree with, the first coin would be graded either AU58 if they think there is field friction or low MS whereas the second coin would be graded premium gem. So my question to you is, do you think these coins should be the same grade?" [I][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 179)]This is a very silly choice of coins. The top coin is AU and IMO, it will be graded low MS by any TPGS.[/COLOR] [COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 179)]The bottom coin is FULL MS and the only crazy numismatists in the world who would call it AU are you, me, and Doug. :D Not, wishing to be called crazy, over this "gem," I'll go with the MS guys on this coin at any major TPGS. :p[/COLOR][/I][/QUOTE]
Your name or email address:
Do you already have an account?
No, create an account now.
Yes, my password is:
Forgot your password?
Stay logged in
Coin Talk
Home
Forums
>
Coin Forums
>
US Coins Forum
>
Thoughts on cabinet friction from a professional grader.
>
Home
Home
Quick Links
Search Forums
Recent Activity
Recent Posts
Forums
Forums
Quick Links
Search Forums
Recent Posts
Competitions
Competitions
Quick Links
Competition Index
Rules, Terms & Conditions
Gallery
Gallery
Quick Links
Search Media
New Media
Showcase
Showcase
Quick Links
Search Items
Most Active Members
New Items
Directory
Directory
Quick Links
Directory Home
New Listings
Members
Members
Quick Links
Notable Members
Current Visitors
Recent Activity
New Profile Posts
Sponsors
Menu
Search
Search titles only
Posted by Member:
Separate names with a comma.
Newer Than:
Search this thread only
Search this forum only
Display results as threads
Useful Searches
Recent Posts
More...