Thoughts on cabinet friction from a professional grader.

"If we don't change direction soon, we'll end up where we are going."
Professor Corey

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

Well, we know where we're going
But we don't know where we've been
And we know what we're knowing
But we can't say what we've seen
And we're not little children
And we know what we want
And the future is certain
Give us time to work it out

Talking Heads

 

Decimal grading isn't actually a change, it's just using a more specific number so it could be possible though unlikely. The 100 point scale is a complete change and considering the billions and billions of dollars already graded that scale is DOA and not happening. We already basically have a 100 point scale now when you consider plus grades and more importantly ee don't even use all 70 grades now, no need to expand to 1-100.

 

Great. "I feel more like I do now than before I got here." Prof. Corey

That's why I like Exo. Sometimes there's only three grades-- average, above average and below average.Or there's nothing except an image. if you like what you see buy it or bid on it.

 

Well, the grading system does start MS at MS 60 and up to MS 70.
That is an acknowledgement which shows the grading is based on wear, first and primarily.
It was instituted to serve a hobby of collectors who obtained their treasures out of circulation. Pocket change.
So, most of what was found was circulated.
Also, the mint had a pretty casual attitude towards quality. All those big silver coins, shipped in bags, and rubbing each other.
Thus, MS 60 thru MS 70 to capture a coins state. Necessitated by the virtually universal "bag marks". Esp large silver.
Back then, Morgans, Peace, Walkers, Franklns, etc typically had marks. MS 70 anything was rare, even for proofs. We used push in albums, handled our coins and even the cheap paper stapled holders were not universal. Coin tubes maybe. Individual plastic holders were for rich guys or prized coins
Thats why they had an 11 point spread for MS.
Now we have much higher mint srandards, and its not hard to find MS 69-70 or Proof 69-70. You can get a one Troy oz ASE MS 70 or Proof 70 for under $100.
Thats a collection centerpiece.
Not to mention, the current coins hold up pretty well to wear. You rarely see even 1965, the first year of clad, as worn as so many of the old silver and copper.
Also, coins dont circulate much anymore, except for quarters. Almost everyone has a change jar and throws their change in it. They occasionally raid it to pay the pizza guy, so it winds up mostly cents and nickels.
I probably have $150 or more in mine, as I rarely nab the quarters. I intend to eventually take it to a local bank that has a coin sorter and open an account

The grading system is based on wea

I think it might be useful to have multiple grades.
The old one up to maybe 1980 or thereabouts, maybe a second one for old coins that were hand pressed and had worn dies, off-center, Late Die State, etc.
A third strictly for MS and Proof coins that were impaired or circulated in some way.
I often see early American coins that are in excellent condition, but get a low grade because they lack detail. A weak strike or worn die would mimic wear in this case.
If you ever explored Ebay for these coins, you will quickly realize, these coins have a lot of problems. A clean, problem free example is rare, and priced accordingly.
Personally, I would prefer one that had a weak strike, or late die state to one that was just worn.
How do they accomadate this? Or do they?

 

This is all such rubbish.........

 

For sure. Rubbish is too nice a word. I was thinking something I can't post.

 

Yeah, but thousands of dollars are at stake because of this rubbish. Not that is the real rubbish.

 

So what, do you think if we eliminated grading, nobody would pay money for rare coins?

 

Not what I said at all. Say a coin has high-point wear (either from “cabinet friction” or circulation, but not rolls/bags). Is it AU-58 or MS-63? That is the crux of this discussion. The answer to that question can mean thousands of dollars one way or another. It is just silly how much this simple difference on the holder for the same coin can cause such a huge difference in value.

 

I think you're missing my point, which admittedly is largely a thought exercise, but follow what I'm saying here:

Take a coin that leaves the mint as MS70. For this particular coin, MS70 is mint state. The coin then enters circulation and acquires hits and hairlines, reducing the coin to MS63, however, the coin has acquired no wear. My point is, this coin has to be by definition not mint state. It is not in the state it left the mint! It is circulated, and has acquired detrimental surface conditions from circulation resulting in a poorer state of preservation. Yet we call this coin both uncirculated and mint state, neither of which are true, which is why both terms are meaningless unless you're talking about a sealed mint product.

 

Who's definition? If you don't know the complete history of a coin, you have to use a definition that makes sense. A mint state coin is a coin that looks like a mint state coin.

 

Technically, wear is wear.
If you have documentation of its provenance, you could probably get a better price. Documentation is common with dog breeds, but rare with coins.
But seriously, how much wear are you going to get this way? You would almost have to compulsively sit there with the coin situated just so, while opening and closing the drawer thousands of times to achieve visible wear.
I also think a coin like that would look much nicer than one that came by the wear honestly. With most of the wear on the high point of the rims. Leaving the important and critical points virginal.

 

A common sense definition. Mint state being the state as produced when minted.

Does an MS60-62 really look like a mint state coin to you? Everyone knows these are coins that were circulated and/or mishandled.

What if we insert another grade descriptor between 55 and 63? Something like this:

Mint State (MS) 63-70
Virtually Uncirculated (VU) 58-62
Almost Uncirculated (AU) 50-55

 

Common sense is such a loose term it is relatively meaningless.

 

Point taken, but the authoritative definition of mint state as used in grading is currently applied to a lot of coins that are obviously circulated. Last I checked, coins are not minted in a circulated state.

 

Common Sense is like the old quote about porn. "I know it when I see it"
And, we all do.
FWIW- I LOVE Dilbert! The man is a comic genius.

 

Where did you find this "authoritative" definition? Coins are not minted in a circulated state, but there are weak strikes, filled dies, bag marks, etc. so that you really know nothing about a coin's history except what you can SEE. The difference comes from how you interpret what you see.

 

All you have to do is look at GSA Morgans to know that MS coins not circulated can be banged up; granted those coins are the well documented exception.

 

So this is more to the point of my thought exercise.

How many here readily defend calling circulated coins mint state when we know a large number of examples have actually acquired surface damage from circulating? The defense for calling them MS is that you can't tell where the surface damage comes from.

Yet so many here object to calling apparently uncirculated coins mint state when they have high point rub with pristine fields. And the defense for calling them AU and not MS is that you can't tell where the rub (surface damage) comes from.

Wear is not special. Any surface damage (hits, hairlines, wear, etc.) acquired after the coin is issued from the mint is all the same.