Thoughts on cabinet friction from a professional grader.

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by TypeCoin971793, Apr 26, 2019.

  1. BuffaloHunter

    BuffaloHunter Short of a full herd

    Me too. It would solve a lot of the current problems. CAC would be rendered obsolete with a change like that, but there's bound to be casualties in this grading war.
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  3. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    No they wouldn't. No matter what scale is used there will always be high end and low end of any grade. The scale should be fluid and not two on top of each other like it used to be, but fully embracing the change isn't going to render CAC obsolete.
  4. BuffaloHunter

    BuffaloHunter Short of a full herd

    If the change were implemented correctly and the TPG's stuck to it, it certainly would. Why put a bean on a slab to tell us that it is top for its grade and it should sell for more than said grade when the purpose of this change enables the grade to be bumped up or down? May as well stick to the troublesome way it is right now then.
  5. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    You can have an MS-64 that is better than most 64s, and that will get a bean. It is not affected by this proposed system. What we are talking about are MS-62s which are technical AU-58s and calling them AU-62. Again, this could be a high-end AU-62, or a low-end one. CAC is still relevant in this case.

    But the market has gone beyond silly with having to be told whether or not something is a nice coin. That’s the issue. CAC shouldn’t be relevant, but alas it is.
  6. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    ANY grade will always have a high and low end. Doesn't matter if its the 1-70 now or 1-30000, there will always be a top and a bottom of each grade.

    That doesn't even get into that fact that when you are talking about expensive coins which is what CACs actual focus is people value a second expert opinion. It was the market that brought CAC down into the low three figure and under coins, not their desire to have those sent
  7. BuffaloHunter

    BuffaloHunter Short of a full herd

    Herein the problem lies. Too many people that rely on what the plastic says.
    Paul M. likes this.
  8. BuffaloHunter

    BuffaloHunter Short of a full herd

    For pricing purposes, I wonder if it would make sense to implement fractions into the proposed numbering system? I think it has been discussed before on these boards. I think that might eliminate some of the headaches.
  9. thomas mozzillo

    thomas mozzillo Well-Known Member

    IMO the proposed numbering system sounds good but adding fractions into it? Hope you were just joking! :happy: lol
    TypeCoin971793 likes this.
  10. Mainebill

    Mainebill Wild Bill

    Cac not only will sticker for being accurately graded and high end for the grade but the coin must also be original and usually eye appealing. There’s a lot of dipped old cleaned and retoned or otherwise market acceptable coins that will straight grade but won’t bean no matter how high end for the grade they are that’s where cac is good
  11. longnine009

    longnine009 Most Exalted Excellency

    I see no difference between implementing decimal grading or 100 point grading.
  12. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    We have had arguments over whether or not something is an MS-66, 66+, or 67. The graders can grade the same coin differently on two different submissions. Do you really think dividing the MS region into more categories would make things better? What qualifies a coin to be MS-64.3 instead of MS-64.4?

    CAC had stickered dipped coin in the past, and say they would if they felt the eye appeal warranted the sticker.
  13. Mainebill

    Mainebill Wild Bill

    On occasion yes. But for the most part they don’t sticker coins with surface problems
    Paul M. likes this.
  14. RonSanderson

    RonSanderson Supporter! Supporter

    Here I go then: a new grading scale that corrects all the faults of the faulty Sheldon scale. Off the top of my head, we have issues with
    • Cabinet friction, stacking friction and defining the AU/MS boundary
    • Denoting color. You see muddy coins that grade 66 and rainbow toners that get a star.
    • TPGs don’t seem to care about strike. Yet, to compensate they make strange designations of FS, FB, FBL, that only focus on a single feature and still don’t capture the overall strike
    The mere existence of band-aids and add-on notations is all the proof we need that the current system falls short.

    To start, let’s scale wear from 1-60. Cabinet friction may knock a perfect coin down to 59 or 58. But we now have a way to account for it that is a natural part of the grading scale. But all uncirculated coins start their overall rating right around 60, and all circulated grades are still the same as they are now.

    Add on a rating for strike, 1-10. This will do away with add-on notations for “full” lines, head, steps, bands and so on. Instead, all features come into play.

    Take Standing Liberty quarters, for example. Yes, a full head is nice, but a full shield with all rivets and a fully rounded leg are just as hard to achieve. If all are present, give the full 10 points.

    Next, color. 0 for original, 10 for dazzling. Bad color can be deducted in the next category.

    Tarnished / stained. 0 for blast white to -5.

    Damage always detracts. 0 to -30, with holing or tooling covered at the extreme. (This can be a catchall for most issues of surface preservation, including the beating taken by most Morgans. If they are badly scuffed start them off at -10 or so.)

    Luster 0 to 10.

    I may have missed a category or two (proof-like finish?), but with this scale we can give an “appraisal” score of 0 to 100 right on the holder. Add a barcode or QR code to encode the individual categories and you can scan it with a phone to get the full breakdown. For example, when scanning listings I could filter out all coins with a Strike rating less than 7, since I like well-struck coins.

    Not all categories need equal weight. Some might only range from 1 to 4 and some to 10 to account for their importance.

    Hmmm, the “Ron” grading scale. Sounds pretty good to me...
    Last edited: May 5, 2019
  15. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    Perhaps you like "rationalized" keyboards too.
  16. longnine009

    longnine009 Most Exalted Excellency

    It's not a tough equation. 100 Point grading or decimal grading, either way, equals more grades.
    Kentucky likes this.
  17. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    I thought I did, do you? The Dvorak keyboard.
  18. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    Jaelus, posted: "It doesn't matter. Mint state is truly a meaningless term."

    The word "Mint State" is not meaningless at all! That word and the condition of preservation it stood for in the past HAS BEEN CORRUPTED by you know who. The word UNCIRCULATED is the meaningless term. When you are examining the condition of a coin its history is usually unknown. It does not matter how or how long it actually circulated as long as it remains in its original Mint State condition. The difference is very clear and easy to comprehend when you think about it and the words are used correctly!

    "When we start prepending MS or AU to a coin's numerical grade, that's when people start getting confused. Coins that have jostled around and acquired contact marks etc., be it inside the mint, in banks, or in circulation, even if they have no wear, are no longer mint state."

    It is apparent to me that the ANA, authors, and grading instructors everywhere have done a very poor job educating collectors of all skill levels.

    RonSanderson posted a proposed grading system. Unfortunately, it contains little of anything new that has not been suggested/published in the past and NOT ADOPTED. Perhaps one day, the need to quantify each part of the grading equation will be necessary.
    Paul M., green18 and atcarroll like this.
  19. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    I mostly agree with you, but WILL people change?
  20. longnine009

    longnine009 Most Exalted Excellency

    Change in what way? Accept 100 Point grading or decimal grading? I doubt it.
    Kentucky likes this.
  21. green18

    green18 Unknown member Sweet on Commemorative Coins Supporter

    Thanks to Doug, I can now 'get you' with a smart bomb........ devil.gif
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