Thoughts on cabinet friction from a professional grader.

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by TypeCoin971793, Apr 26, 2019.

  1. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    For ancients, probably not. For Jefferson Nickels and most other 20th Century coinage, YES it matters.
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  3. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    I don’t wanna spend hours trying to determine the value of an AU58 coin that is premium gem quality by searching hundreds of auction archives looking for a similar AU58 coin that sold for a premium. I’d rather the coins be graded across the same spectrum of quality that their surfaces represent sans the high point friction, which is what the TPGs already do. But hey, let’s change the way things are done because a couple of cranks on a coin forum think “wear is wear!”
  4. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random nobody...

    Looks like convenience wins. As I said earlier, that is what is driving the shifting standards more than anything else.

  5. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random nobody...

  6. thomas mozzillo

    thomas mozzillo Well-Known Member

    Nice article from Numismatic News but when I click on @Insider only his info box shows up.
  7. desertgem

    desertgem MODERATOR Senior Errer Collecktor Moderator

    I love to read his articles, but he isn't insider with out the mojicons, rather like Christmas compared to Halloween :angelic::arghh::troll::) Jim
    Paul M. and TypeCoin971793 like this.
  8. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    Oh please, like it would even be possible to come up with a valuation using that ridiculous method. And you are the one who wants to get rid of numerical grading all together. What is that if not for your own convenience.
  9. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random nobody...

    Not really. I spend time with each major purchase trying to determine how much I would have to pay for a coin with the look I want. Or, similarly, I look through a bunch of sold listings and find which are a closest match to the coin I am selling and price it accordingly. That’s what I like doing, and it is far less “convenient” than typing in slab info to find prices. I don’t see why you are trying to accuse me of thinking this would be convenient for me. I also don’t see how this in an impossible method of establishing value; it’s pretty effective.

    Slabs rule the market because of their convenience, plain and simple. “Don’t know how to authenticate? Don’t worry, we’ll do it for you! Don’t khow how to grade? Don’t worry, we’ll do it for you! Don’t know what your coin’s value is? Don’t worry, we’ll give you a value as well!”
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2019
    thomas mozzillo likes this.
  10. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    Because I see no other reason to scrap the entire grading system. Furthermore, you are accusing me of being a lazy collector. I've won the Best Presented Set Award from the NGC Registry, not once, but twice. I am anything but a lazy collector. That said, it shouldn't take hours of research to determine the value of a coin. Finding the grade and looking at the associated auction archives with that grade takes mere minutes, that is until you put all the coins from a particular series into the same grade. At that point, it is like looking for a needle in a haystack.
  11. TheFinn

    TheFinn Well-Known Member

    It won't work now for US coins. Too much money involved that no one is willing to lose.
    Paul M. likes this.
  12. TheFinn

    TheFinn Well-Known Member

    You forgot a pocket. How many got picked up from the bank and taken home without the need to hold it by the rim at arm's length?
  13. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random nobody...

    Then you aren’t doing your research effectively.

    Every single point you have made in support the current grading system revolves around convenience. It’s not your laziness, but it is certainly that of others.

    That’s because you look beyond the holder. Despite everything I’ve said, I do find your skills impressive and admirable.
  14. TheFinn

    TheFinn Well-Known Member

    The only place I see technical grading is in descriptions of rare Branch Mint gold, where a piece is described as, "the only true unc. known "
  15. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random nobody...

    I know it won’t ever work. The current system is the spinal column of the US coin market. It can’t be removed or radically changed, and it probably won’t be.
    Paul M. likes this.
  16. gronnh20

    gronnh20 Well-Known Member

    I got buy the coin not the label out of the article. He sums it up in the paragraph where he talks about his students making their own decision on friction. That is what I get out of every article written about TPGrading or grading in general. I am fine with the state of grading right now.

    I feel even more technical grading would kill the hobby. NGC and full step nickels are a prime example. They tried, along with ANACS, for a change to more technical grading by counting steps. That didn't last long. Wasn't an objective/subjective attribute of Full Steps enough? Why attribute full steps at all? No one attributes fully struck Buffalo nickels. Which is great for knowledgeable Buffalo nickel collectors. I see it here all the time with people buying Buffalo nickels with a gem grade and the nickel is poorly struck. Obviously, reading a book on Buffalo nickels is not required when the label says MS65.:bookworm: There is some other statistics I would like to see on TPG labels.

    I would buy a coin with cabinet friction for MS money if a worthy provenance can be shown. Really at that point I am buying the provenance. Otherwise it is worth AU money. I am pretty much all in on the any friction is AU. There are exceptions.
    BuffaloHunter likes this.
  17. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    If you know and agree with the assigned grade of a 20th Century coin, finding both price guide info and previous auction prices realized online is so easy that it shouldn’t take more than 5-10 minutes to come up with a valuation for the coin.

    Finding values for early American coinage might take longer due to variety attributions and lower populations and auction results, but it still shouldn’t take hours.

    Just because that’s how you do it, doesn’t mean that you are right and everyone else is wrong. The convenience that you seem to abhor, is a product of the system. Coins are graded on a numerical scale based on quality and each coin in each grade generates a price guide value based on historical sales data. What this has to due with laziness is beyond me, the convenience is a byproduct of the grading system and should be celebrated as a virtue rather than criticized as laziness. Now if either a collector or dealer becomes a slave to those price guides which really only provide a baseline starting point, then you can criticize them for laziness. For example, show me a collector who says “I never pay higher than greysheet for my coins” and I will show you a guy with a subpar collection.
    Paul M. and micbraun like this.
  18. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    LOL ! I get your point Mike but I think there's actually more than 3 of us :D

    That said, in all seriousness, I would not in a million years every say that the 2 Saints posted by Paul are the same grade. My opinion, the 1st at best is a 53, the 2nd a 58.
  19. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast


    Just so we can see how completely different you are from the TPGs.
    Paul M. and C-B-D like this.
  20. micbraun

    micbraun coindiccted

    I sure wouldn’t but the NGC coin for AU58 money, as I don’t like the large hits (scratches?) on the obverse. It clearly has wear and due to its imperfections I’d rather grade it low AU than AU58.
  21. Mainebill

    Mainebill Wild Bill

    I figured them as 58 and 65
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