Thoughts on cabinet friction from a professional grader.

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by TypeCoin971793, Apr 26, 2019.

  1. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    Dude, I'm not young or inexperienced. I've been buying and selling rare coins for 2 decades. In addition, I've worked for 20 years in the casino business and have been a professional poker player for the last 5 years. Whatever conmen and grifters you think you've encountered, I promise you that I have dealt with more and worse, so you can stop your little attempt to gaslight people into thinking I'm naive.

    As for your little examples, they have nothing to do with what I'm talking about. They are simply examples of the inherent subjectivity in grading.

    That said, if the TPGs provide a guarantee that their coins aren't overgraded, then deliberately tighten standards, they are committing fraud.
     
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  3. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    Evolving standards and the implementation of new market grading principles result in the overall loosening of grading standards but they have no impact on the standards used to provide a numerical grade for a coin that doesn't qualify for a market grading principle such as the focus of this thread.

    It has been alleged by others in this thread that you believe in the conspiracy theory that the TPGs both loosen and tighten their numerical grading standards in order to drive resubmissions. I think you need to clear the record about what you actually believe.
     
  4. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    I believe I have made it clear the conspiracy theory nonsense is exactly that nonsense.

    PCGS and NGC do NOT need to do that to get submissions. CAC and Photo Seal only deal with PCGS and NGC. Great Collections treats anything not PCGS, NGC, or ANACS differently as well.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2019
  5. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    :rolleyes:

    The cyclic behavior could be an attempt to generate submissions in general, but not resubmissions. The standards loosen to make the big submitters happy. People catch on, and the standards tighten to maintain the appearance of conservative grading to maintain/boost confidence. The big submitters complain, and the standards are loosened again.

    That’s why I chose example which are purely objective and black-and-white. Does the coin have wear, excluding coin-on-coin rub, yes or no? Is the coin graded MS, yes or no? This can be compared to PCGS’ statement on their website that MS coins have to have no wear to be MS. Is the coin abrasively-cleaned, yes or no? It the coin straight-graded, yes or no? This can be compared with to PCGS’ statement on their website that ANY abrasive cleaning would result in a “details” grade.

    The argument that “people just know that’s what they do” is not going to cut it, because the majority actually do not. It is misleading and harmful. This is no conspiracy theory. It is objectively-provable fact.
     
  6. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

  7. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    Oh no, the "Dude" word. Your post :yawn: reads just as I felt :cool: as a twenty-something professional numismatist. So "full" of myself :smug: because at that time, I could claim I was one of the top five U.S. Coin authenticators in the world! :D

    You have a very impressive resume. Additionally, as a poker player you probably know how to bluff. Unfortunately, in spite of your resume, something major is lacking: You have not been employed by a TPGS which makes much of what you post :stinkyfeet: idealistic, brown-colored, misinformation. Bluffs work in poker until your hand is called and you lose. ;)

    Meet me at a FUN Show and I'll educate you about the "real world."
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2019
    micbraun and Pickin and Grinin like this.
  8. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    Pickin and Grinin likes this.
  9. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    Yes, thank you for proving my point. These threads are exactly the type of infantile whining that perpetuate the conspiracy theory that the TPGs cyclically change their numerical grading standards. None of those threads/articles are even come close to providing any measure of proof.

    The third article you linked is about a rejection of certain color schemes for a particular series of coins (IHCs) and has nothing to do with a tightening of numerical grading standards. The TPGs have adjusted their stance on certain toning patterns and color schemes several times in the past, IHCs and Peacock IKES spring to mind. The only real controversy is whether the coins that passed as MA before the change by the TPG are eligible for the grading guarantee since they are now in essence problem coins.
     
    baseball21 likes this.
  10. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    There are only two ways this can happen. PSA either got fooled or it was done on purpose. I choose to believe they were fooled by the alterations. Otherwise, they could ruin the reputation of the company. If their reputation stays mostly intact, the stock should eventually go back up.

    All the TPGS have slabbed altered and counterfeit coins. If we remove "market acceptable" alterations, the rest got by the professional authenticators.
     
    Bob Evancho likes this.
  11. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    :rolleyes: You can lead a horse to water but if it is not thirsty...:muted:

    BTW @Lehigh96

    At one time
    all of us believed in Santa, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy. For many of us, it was a great age of life.
     
  12. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    Again, I'm not in my twenties, or even my thirties. My use of the word "dude" was to convey my displeasure at your feeble attempt to gaslight people into thinking I am young and inexperienced.

    Perhaps the people on this thread would benefit from putting a face to the name of the person they are debating. I have recently bumped the "show yourself" thread and encourage everyone to participate to increase civility. Calling @Insider , @TypeCoin971793, @ddddd, @EyeAppealingCoins , @baseball21 , @Pickin and Grinin

    Show yourself! (Picture thread)

    And yes, poker players know how to bluff. But what most people outside the poker world don't understand is that bluffing has nothing to do with courage or a poker face. Bluffing is about timing. It is about the ability to narrow your opponents hand range down to a few holdings and decide that most of his resultant range would have to fold to a raise.

    It is true that I have never been employed by a TPG, but other than you, nobody else here has either. And to my knowledge, you have never worked for either NGC or PCGS which are the only two that I am talking about. The true strength of my position isn't that I'm bluffing, its that in order to prove me wrong and confirm that the conspiracy theories are correct, the person would need to provide information that would basically crash the entire TPG system as we know it.
     
  13. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    If anyone is acting like a child right now, I promise you that it is you. The only reason to resort to gaslighting tactics is because the merits of your argument aren't winning. If you recall, I was accused of doing this earlier in this thread when I complained about your posting style, though Big Money agreed with me.

    This is now the third time that you have resorted to calling be naive/inexperienced. I'm asking you politely to stop. If you don't, I will assume that you have no interest in further debate and simply want to troll me, and will treat you accordingly.
     
  14. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    So wait, you refuse to believe that PSA broke their standards to sustain submissions on the grounds that "they could ruin the reputation of the company" yet you contend that the TPGs have been engaging in a decades long fraud by periodically loosening and tightening their grading standards?

    This is the primary reason that I don't believe the conspiracy theory. If this behavior was ever confirmed, it would destroy the reputation of the company, and result in countless lawsuits. Furthermore, with the expansion of both the modern and world coin markets, resubmissions/crossovers are a very small part of their revenue stream.
     
    baseball21 likes this.
  15. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

  16. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    Yeah, they (an almost-universal they) whine for about a month or so, then PCGS loosens their standards and they shut up. Then many months later the same things happen. It is a cycle. Do I support their infantile whining? No, because it adversely affects the integrity of the standards in this hobby.

    If they whined all of the time, then I would agree with you. If it was just one or two individuals, I would agree with you. If the ones whining aren’t dealers and rarely send in coins, then I would agree with you.

    A true conspiracy theory is the one where more-lenient grades are given to bigger dealers. That is one I don’t believe. Nor do I believe that resubissions are the primary motivation of changing standards. I think we both can find common ground there.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2019
  17. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    @Insider worked at NGC for several years
     
  18. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    I'm not going to believe that NGC or PCGS changes their numerical grading standards until someone shows me proof. And by proof, I mean actual evidence, not the whining of people on the internet chat rooms.
     
    baseball21 likes this.
  19. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    Then he should be in a position to prove the assertion.
     
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  20. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

  21. C-B-D

    C-B-D Well-Known Member

    Great thread. Very interesting.
     
    Insider likes this.
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