Featured This is NOT a donkey head!

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Roman Collector, Mar 31, 2019.

  1. catadc

    catadc Member


    I need to correct this: Dracula does not mean Dragon. It is a word derived from "Dracul", which means "the devil". Also, the Dacian draco is well known as a "wolf head" in the stories and legends that circulate at the north of Danube. Is the first time I ever read about it being referred as a donkey head. The dragon is quite present in the local stories and legends, but always as a secondary character, always defeated and/or killed by the good guy. Something like in "St George slaying the dragon". So the perception of the dragon is totally different of Chinese culture, and representations of dragons quite limited.
     
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  3. Al Kowsky

    Al Kowsky Supporter! Supporter

    studying-smiley.png
    Roman Collector, Great research ;)!
     
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  4. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE Supporter

    I did a cursory search on WIKIPEDIA (first line of the article):
    "Vlad II (Romanian: Vlad al II-lea), also known as Vlad Dracul (Vlad al II-lea Dracul) or Vlad the Dragon (before 1395 – November 1447), was Voivode of Wallachia from 1436 to 1442, and again from 1443 to 1447. "
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlad_II_Dracul
     
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  5. Sallent

    Sallent Live long and prosper Supporter

    I never heard of it being anything but a draco. I'm guessing the donkey identification has fallen out of favor by now.

    Here's mine ...

    decius_6 (1) (1).jpg
     
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  6. catadc

    catadc Member

    Alegandron, this is a great exemple of how the language evolved and one's (read mine) opinion is influenced by local legends. Because I originate from that area of Europe. Thank you for pointing me in the right direction.

    The wiki link points to Vlad the Second, which is the father of Vlad the Third, and Vlad the Third is "the Impaler" / "Dracula". It mentions that the name "Dracul" comes from the fact that Vlad the Second joined "Societas Draconistarum" (in Latin, "Order of Dragons" in EN). So "Dracul" in local language was coming from "Draco" (Latin), but the word "Dracul" from Romanian does not translate to "dragon" (anymore?), but "devil", "dyavol" in Russian, "seytan" in Turkish. So it is just an example of how words that 700 years ago meant the same thing, these days, they no longer do.

    The RO wikipedia page mentions the origin of the name, but not the "Dragon" nickname for Vlad the Second.

    Now I want one of those coins... and maybe some of the other's Traian.
     
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  7. randygeki

    randygeki Coin Collector

  8. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE Supporter

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  9. Jochen1

    Jochen1 Well-Known Member

    I add a zoom of my draco from Trajan Decius RIC IV, 12(b).
    trajan_decius_00.jpg

    Jochen
     
  10. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

    I'm sure it's suppose to be a Draco standard, but it still looks like a donkey head. Since @Jochen1 showed a zoom of his, I thought I'd try it as well. Not as good a result however:
    Trajan Decius 5a.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2019
  11. Julius Germanicus

    Julius Germanicus Supporter! Supporter

    Eventhough the reverse on my Trajan Decius is not as good as the portrait, I would say the draco looks rather donkey-ish here as well:

    Bildschirmfoto 2019-06-05 um 23.05.05.png
    IMP C M Q TRAIANVS DECIVS AVG -
    laureate and cuirassed bust of Trajan Decius right, seen from behind
    DACIA - Dacia, wearing robe reaching feet, standing left, holding Dacian Draco battle standard in right hand; S C in exergue
    Sestertius, Rome AD 250-251 (1st officina, 2nd-3rd emissions)
    17.87gr / 28,5 mm
    RIC 112 a, Cohen 18, Sear 9399, Banti 1, Hunter 32
     
  12. Jochen1

    Jochen1 Well-Known Member

    And you should also use your own mind. What use would a donkey be in a battle?

    Jochen
     
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  13. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member Supporter

    I recently bought a second one of these coins hoping to upgrade the Draco look but it is hard to say which coin is the upgrade overall and which is the one to sell off. My photos will enlarge if clicked. Which is the keeper? Yeah, I know. both and neither.
    ro1260fd1802.jpg ro1260zz1802.jpg
     
  14. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

    @dougsmit, the first coin is the better, but on second thought, perhaps the second. No wait! It's the first. Umm, maybe the second. Okay, keep 'em both!!!!!
     
  15. Severus Alexander

    Severus Alexander Blame my mother. Supporter

    Still haven't made up your mind? You were wondering about this on Mar. 31st in this thread (on p. 1). :D The older one seems to have gained some appeal in the meantime.

    But everyone knows you will keep both. ;)
     
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  16. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member Supporter

    Well, the old one has a better obverse and the new one a better reverse. I don't know how to slice them.
     
  17. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

    Like I said, keep 'em both!
     
  18. Suarez

    Suarez Well-Known Member

    Thanks for writing this OP! It looks like I'm guilty of perpetuating this embarrassing blunder which I'll be correcting asap. To me it looks also like the best candidate to explain the Julius Caesar elephant-stepping-on-snake type as well.

    So many times it's just easier to go with the flow than question a habit. A famous case in point, calling this a camp gate
    1.jpg
    It's quite obviously a city's gate as Roman military camps were temporary. If they had any fortifications they would be crude ditches, ramparts and/or barricades. You certainly don't put up masonry and richly adorned bronze doors on a camp you only intend to hold for a few days/weeks at the most. And if that defensive position is worth holding onto permanently then it becomes a village and is no longer a camp! You wouldn't find one of these even in a village, in any case, since the expense couldn't be justified.

    But I admit that I, too, will still catch myself from time to time calling them camp gates regardless. Habit!

    Rasiel
     
  19. Severus Alexander

    Severus Alexander Blame my mother. Supporter

    I like the implied principle here:

    If a coin is better in at least one respect than your other examples, keep it.

    This makes for large collections. I don't regard that as a problem. :D
     
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  20. Plumbata

    Plumbata Well-Known Member

    Hah, I missed this thread the first go-around and was greatly amused to see that the subject was a coin that I happened to buy earlier today.

    It looks rather scuzzy right now but I've been getting pretty good at cleaning coins and since the surfaces look solid I'm pretty confident that all the crud can be removed, which should reveal a pretty decent portrait. It was about 16 bucks so while not a steal it appeared as though it would be a fun candidate to attempt a mix of electrochemical treatment and manual picking under a 20x binocular 'scope on. I had no idea what the "scythe" item was, and while I'm now envious of some of the superb renderings of Dacia and the standard shared here I greatly appreciate the lesson about the Dacian Draco!

    dacia1.jpg dacia2.jpg
     
  21. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member Supporter

    I was hoping by now to hear how the cleaning went. The coin would be a lot better without the lumps but I am not sure what I would try first.
     
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