Theodore II Ducas-Lascaris (Nicaea). SBCV-2146

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by BenSi, Dec 12, 2020.

  1. BenSi

    BenSi Supporter! Supporter

    I got this coin today, extremely rare, I just thought I would share. Not perfect but I have never seen another example in person and only one on the web. I am very happy to add this to my collection.

    Theodore II Ducas-Lascaris (Nicaea). AE Tetarteron. Magnesia mint.

    OBV: Star within crescent.

    REV : Emperor standing holding, wearing loros, holding labarum-headed sceptre and globus with cross.

    DOC IV pl.XXXVI,14

    Ref Sear: 2146

    If you have Nicaea coinage, please share.
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    +VGO.DVCKS Well-Known Member

    Wow, @BenSi, that's pretty amazing, for a tetarteron as late as that. If I had a hat, it would be off to you. Consider the source, but, Congratulations!!!
    Here's the only one (of mmmMaybe three, all scyphat trachea) that's easy to find the .jpg for. As you will know, this is of John, nearer the fall of Constantinople (, well, Those People). I like him for having given Jean de Brienne a run for his money, after Jean landed in Constantinople as the papal candidate for Emperor, effectively as regent for Baldwin I. ...I need this example especially for how much of the legends are struck up. ...Maybe the lower mintage, compared to the halcyon days of the 12th century, helped to stabilize the minting practices, on that mundane a level.
    ...With western European medieval as my primary frame of reference, that's just a guess. It looks as if whoever struck this wasn't so pressured, and/or hung over, that he wasn't invested in what the end product would look like. COINS, NICEA, JOHN TRACHY, BOTH SIDES.jpg
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2020
  4. BenSi

    BenSi Supporter! Supporter

    @+VGO.DVCKS , that coin is in great condition. Congratulations.
    +VGO.DVCKS likes this.

    +VGO.DVCKS Well-Known Member

    @BenSi, Honest, your vote of confidence is keenly appreciated! Thanks.
  6. Only a Poor Old Man

    Only a Poor Old Man Well-Known Member

    I have never seen one of these before. And I imagine that flan started its life as something else and then it was clipped, right?
    +VGO.DVCKS likes this.

    +VGO.DVCKS Well-Known Member

    Pretty astute point, @Only a Poor Old Man. From my western European center of gravity, I need periodic reminding that elsewhere in the world, clipping could be an intentional, even official means of regulating the weight.
    Only a Poor Old Man likes this.
  8. BenSi

    BenSi Supporter! Supporter

    Gentlemen, i don't beileve these coins or most late issues were actually clipped, i think it was the poorly cut flans the cojns were struck on. Weight for other coins would show an inconsistency, i belive they were junky flans to start.

    I will point out mine is an opinion but i think that is most logical conclusion, i know others who would believe that it was done after striking thus a type of clipping.


    +VGO.DVCKS Well-Known Member

    ...Right, junky flans to start. Thanks for the reality check! :<}
    Only a Poor Old Man likes this.
  10. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter Basileus Megalos

    Very interesting coin of a type I have not seen before. Well, you learn something new everyday! (At least hopefully)
  11. Only a Poor Old Man

    Only a Poor Old Man Well-Known Member

    I think it is a valid opinion. If we take into consideration the sad state of current affairs when the coin was minted and the generally fragile geopolitical climate, it is understandable that it wasn't a high priority to make perfectly round flans for a denomination that wasn't worth much to begin with!
    Quant.Geek, BenSi and +VGO.DVCKS like this.
  12. +VGO.DVCKS

    +VGO.DVCKS Well-Known Member

    ...@ancient coin hunter: if not, you're in Trouble!!!
  13. Quant.Geek

    Quant.Geek Well-Known Member

    Very nice @BenSi! That is an extraordinary coin which is very difficult to come by. Congrats! Here is its sibling...

    Empire of Nicaea: John III Ducas-Vatatzes (1221-1254) Æ Tetarteron, Magnesia Mint (Sear 2117; DOC IV.50)
    Obv: Cross within crescent-shaped ornament decorated with pellets
    Rev: Half-length figure of emperor wearing stemma, divitision, collar-piece, and paneled loros of simplified types; holds in right hand labarum-headed scepter, and in left globus cruciger or globus surmounted by patriarchal cross

  14. BenSi

    BenSi Supporter! Supporter

    Beautiful example Ram, here is a little more common Theodore II.


    2145 Theodore II (Magn.) AE Tetarteron SBCV-2145 DOC IV 13
    OBV- Lys. Pellet in Upper and lower field, to either side.

    REV- Full length figure of emperor wearing stemma, divitision and Chalmys; holds in r hand labarum on a long shaft and in l. anexikakia.

    Size 18.57

    Weight 1.9gm

    DOC lists 2 examples sized 17mm and 21mm and only one weight .95gm
  15. +VGO.DVCKS

    +VGO.DVCKS Well-Known Member

    @BenSi, it's almost depressing to see the 'Frankish' influence creeping in, with the fleur de lis (...maybe from Florence as well as France?), not only in the later issues of Constantinople, but already in Nicaea. ...As of this dire moment in the 13th century, at least for the Greeks, the Latin and Greek communions got Just That Close to reunification --except, Oops, Spoiler Alert, it didn't happen. But the coins continue to symptomize the ongoing, relentlessly intrusive Frankish influence, in the political and economic spheres.
    ...Right, and, with apologies, it's a beautiful coin. ...At a safe enough historical remove to appreciate that part of it for its own sake!
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2020
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