The VIRTVTI antoniniani of Claudius II

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Claudius_Gothicus, Apr 7, 2021.

  1. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    I think that perhaps only the first of these definitely depicts Virtus herself rather than the Emperor, Mars, or a soldier.
     
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  3. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    I think that your second coin depicts Virtus.
     
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  4. cmezner

    cmezner do ut des Supporter

  5. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    I understand, but a lot of references (including RIC) consistently get that wrong. They simply don't look closely enough, and miss obvious clues such as the Amazonian -- and usually very female-looking -- bare right breast, which seems to be present on your coin. Something not usually present when a male soldier is intended to be depicted! See the article at https://www.forumancientcoins.com/moonmoth/reverse_virtus.html. Yes, a parazonium, a shield resting on the ground with the edge showing, and a foot on a helmet, are also attributes of Virtus, but not all of them are always present. The bare right breast seems always to be present, though, and is a sure "tell" that the figure is Virtus.
     
  6. cmezner

    cmezner do ut des Supporter

    Since the days of Marius the Roman army had become completely professional. The bond between commander and soldier was very close; the oath of allegiance, annually renewed, was a promise to obey the commander, by name. That was one reason why ambitious generals could usually count on their men to follow them, even into rebellion.
    The Roman army was by far the best-disciplined force of the day. Occasionally a whole unit would mutiny, or refuse duty in the manner of modern strikes. But apart from these exceptional circumstances the commander could count on obedience. Not every modern general can rely on such certain obedience.

    That's why if the legend says "Virtus Avg" it makes perfect sense to me that it is honoring the virtue of discipline of soldiers.
     
  7. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    And often that's the case, and sometimes "a soldier" is what's shown. Not always, though. And keep in mind that a coin can show the (female) personification of Virtus (always female, of necessity, because the gendered nature of the Latin language compels it), and still be honoring the virtue of discipline of soldiers, or, sometimes, the "Virtus" of the emperor himself. It's a contradiction inherent in the fact that the personification of manly (and military) virtues was female, but it didn't seem to bother the Romans.
     
  8. cmezner

    cmezner do ut des Supporter

    Actually I don't see any contradiction at all.
    Virtus was the deity of bravery and military strength, the personification of Virtus, a Roman virtue. She was closely related with Honos.

    In 210 BC, Marcus Claudius Marcellus proposal for building a temple for Honos and Virtus was rejected. The argument of the priests was that if a miracle happened in the temple, they would not be able to decide to which of them, Virtus or Honos, they would bring a sacrifice. Marcellus then swore that during his consulate in 222 BC, he would build a temple for Virtus, which was finally inaugurated in 205 BC. By construction, it was connected to an earlier temple of Honos at the Porta Capena and one could only reach it through the Virtus temple. Another temple for Honos and Virtus was erected by Scipio Aemilianus in 133 BC, and a third one by Gaius Marius located where later stood the Arch of Titus.
    After a cult reorganization under Augustus, the dea virtus cult lost significance, but Virtus was always kept as a representation of bravery in the traditional Roman sense. In the 4th century AD there were still games organized in her honor.
    A gold statue of Virtus was melted by Alarich I, King of the Goths, in 410 AD.

    Virtus always refers to the virtue of the emperor’s bravery. On the reverse of coins, sometimes it is the emperor, sometimes Virtus, Mars, a soldier and even sometimes the emperor as Hercules who are depicted, e.g. Gallienus has several coins with the Virtus legend but it is Mars who is represented.

    She has multiple representations: as a matron and even as a man or an old man. She can wear a spear, a gladius, a body armour, a cape ….and on her head a helmet.

    Maybe we are trying to understand and explain the ancient world view based on our modern world view, and that is in my opinion not sound.
     
  9. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    I meant only that it would be seen as a contradiction to many a modern eye. The Romans didn't see it as such, and nor do I. Technically, though, I do think there's a distinction (admittedly a fine one) between the actual personification of Virtus (always female) and the qualities of Virtus (often represented by the emperor or Mars or another male figure). But since the noun itself is gendered female, it's really all pretty much the same thing. (Especially because the female personification of Virtus is portrayed with male-coded attributes -- her military clothing and equipment, including that suggestively-placed parazonium! -- with the one telltale exception of her bare right breast.)
     
  10. cmezner

    cmezner do ut des Supporter

    Virtus on a stela 3rd century AD:

    Dea_Virtus.jpeg
     
  11. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    Wow, that's great. Thanks for posting it.
     
  12. cmezner

    cmezner do ut des Supporter

    The stela is in the Roman-Germanic Museum in Cologne.
     
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  13. Claudius_Gothicus

    Claudius_Gothicus Well-Known Member

    Thank you very much for the compliment, @Cucumbor! I'm certainly not brilliant in everything, but I always try to do my best, and I'm glad people appreciate my writeups :)!

    Those are some very interesting examples you've brought up, @Severus Alexander! I agree that they're extremely similar in both portrait style and lettering, and I wouldn't be surprised if the obverses were engraved by the same hand; however, differentiating between the two mints is still possible, as on the Cyzicus coin the drapery is more "angular" and less "horizontal", when compared to the Smyrna version.

    Remaining on topic, the reason I waited a while to answer is that I was expecting this coin from Cyzicus, which is the considerably scarcer variant that omits the "P F" from the obverse legend:
    IMP CLAVDIVS AVG - FORTVNA REDVX.jpg
    Claudius II (268-270), Antoninianus, Cyzicus mint.
    Obverse: IMP CLAVDIVS AVG, radiate, draped and cuirassed bust right, seen from behind;
    Reverse: FORTVN-A REDVX, Fortuna standing left, holding rudder in right hand and cornucopia in left hand; SPQR in exergue.
    RIC - , RIC V Online 948
     
  14. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    Are you sure you're really as young as everyone thinks, and aren't actually a 65-year old man living in his grandmother's basement in Hoboken? (Just kidding!)
     
  15. seth77

    seth77 Well-Known Member

    Can you see the dots under the bust type, and if so how many do you see?

    8i6WKL4j2Xc2x5Ef3Ybia6GoZzw7Sgg.jpg
     
  16. Claudius_Gothicus

    Claudius_Gothicus Well-Known Member

    Nice example, too bad about the striking weakness on the reverse. As far as my coin goes, it's pretty hard to see, but I'm quite sure that there are no dots under the bust; I've also tried finding an obverse die match in RIC V Online, but to no avail, though there are a few with a portrait with an almost identical head shape - maybe the dies were engraved by the same person. If anyone wants to try, here's the link: https://ric.mom.fr/en/search/advanc...scription=&Note=&Reference=&page=1&mod=result
     
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  17. seth77

    seth77 Well-Known Member

    I asked because in your pic I think I can see two:

    dots.jpg
     
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