The value of toning

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by GDJMSP, Feb 8, 2005.

  1. onlysdad

    onlysdad New Member

    Fred, do you mean the "rainbow" type of toning, or the goldish-dark-gray "antique" look that is common on silver coins from the mid-1800's?

    Personally, I'm leery of buying an old raw coin that isn't toned, because it seems like it must have been cleaned or dipped or something to have escaped the darkening that is so common on coins of that age. Do coins that age ever naturally occur as "white" coins?

    onlysdad
     
  2. Avatar

    Guest User Guest



    to hide this ad.
  3. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator


    Yours is an opinion shared by many and usually a good rule of thumb. And it applies to all forms of toning, not just rainbow or the darker grey commonly found on silver coins.

    But consider what causes toning - humidity, air content, storage medium etc. So if a coin is stored under ideal conditions - it will not tone. Take this coin for example -

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Over 350 yrs old and yet toning is barely present. And the coin still exhibits full mint luster in all areas.

    Is it possible this coin was dipped ? Certainly - anything is possible. But if it was, it was a perfect job and only happened once many years ago. But I doubt it for there is still evidence of old, original toning that would have been removed and the luster would have been impaired had the coin been dipped.

    So it is possible to fine very old coins without significant toning. But it doesn't happen very often.
     
  4. MorganFred

    MorganFred New Member

    Well, when I posted my comments, I had in mind rainbow toned coins, but I have or had several raw "antique"-type toned Morgans which show just a little color, mostly around the edges. I guess my thinking and rationale on lightly toned coins would be that it would be relatively safe to buy such coins in a raw state. I figure that if someone is gonna doctor a coin with artificial toning, they're gonna go the whole nine yards and tone the whole thing is glorious color rather than just a hint of color around the edges.

    However, you bring up a very good point: lack of any toning whatsoever on an 1800's coin (at least a Morgan) would be a potential red flag on a coin advertised for sale. Conversely, as mentioned earlier, light toning might be a good indicator that the coin has not been dipped, whizzed, cleaned, or otherwise altered. (But, all that being said, I'm now wondering if some coin doctors have already thought of this and now lightly and artificially tone cleaned coins around the edges).

    I guess the best means for making an analysis of any particular coin's toning is to examine it in hand or send it off to PCGS (or NGC or ANACS). This would also mean that any Seller better have a solid return policy before a bid is placed.
     
  5. cdb1950

    cdb1950 Senior Member

    So there are many environmental factors that can cause a coin to tone naturally. Paper composition, atmospheric conditions, original condition of the coin surface when toning commenced, PVC, stuff like that. What seperates an artificially toned coin from a naturally toned coin when the same processes are used for both? How can you decide which is accidental (natural) and intentional (artificial) when identical chemical reactions take place? Would it be natural toning if you unknowingly stored your coins in a holder that chemically reacted with the coins surface to produce toning, but artificial toning if you intentionally did the same thing? Seems that would boil down to what was the intent when the coin was stored. Is that the only difference?

    P.S. JD, GD, Great Pictures!
     
  6. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Collectors have always known that coins could & would tone over time. But it has pretty much always been the way it is today - some like it, some do not. So some collectors have always tried to prevent toning, while others have done nothing to prevent it, and still others have actively encouraged it. Of course this has happened more so in recent years than in years past.

    Approximately 4 yrs ago, "blast white" coins were all the rage. It was a term that was repeated over and over and over again on ebay, in live auction coin descriptions and by dealers across the nation. For a time, NGC even had a W (White ) designation on their coin slabs. Even attractively toned coins were often sold at a discount.

    But then things began to change - people began to post pictures of toned coins on the various coin forums and to brag about them. Others began to comment to themselves - hey that is pretty ! And soon toned coins became popular. Then they became very popular and prices began to climb ! This was when the coin doctors began to crawl out of the wood work. And the terms AT & NT were discussed ad infinitum.

    But none of this was anything new - it had all happened before. Toned coins and white coins have gone back & forth in popularity for decades. It's much like fashion - fads come and go. Who can remember bell bottom pants in the '70s ? Did you see any during the '90s ? I think you get my point.

    But today things are a bit different with toned coins. Because of the internet we are able to share with one another pictures of our favorite coins. We are able to see toning examples we likely would never have seen before. And like with new foods and fashions - the tastes of people change as they are exposed to new things.

    Today there are those who can imitate almost any form of natural toning. They are so good at it that not even best of experts can tell the difference. And if you can't tell the difference - does it matter ? That's a question that each individual has to answer for themselves.

    Today some collectors actively pursue older collections that are found in older Dansco albums. They don't do this for the coins in the ablums - they want the albums themselves. They remove the coins and place their own high grade examples in them. Then put them away for a period of time to allow the coins to tone - naturally. It doesn't always take years as many think. I have seen coins tone in weeks or months given the right conditions. But you never quite know how they will turn out. Some may be masterpieces - others may be as ugly as a mud fence. So it is always a gamble.

    But it can be said that coins placed into albums like this are naturally toned - even though it was done intentionally. But it is the coins that are toned with chemicals and/or heat that are considered to be artifically toned. Some of these are poorly done and even a novice can see it. Others are done quite well and one has to be familiar with the way the colors blend together, what colors are there, the shape and patterns of the color to distinguish AT from NT. And as I mentioned with some you just can't tell.

    And as I have said before, understanding toning and being able to recognize AT from NT can be one of if not the most difficult things there is to learn in numismatics. But only you can decide if it matters - to you.
     
  7. cdb1950

    cdb1950 Senior Member

    Precisely!

    I do some toning and found the old National Coin Albums work nicely.


    Good answers. Thanks!
     
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page