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Message:: [QUOTE="Insider, post: 2877352, member: 24314"]I agree, good discussion.  <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie50" alt=":happy:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" />  One other thing (as usual <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie46" alt=":facepalm:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" />):  If some conniving,<img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie43" alt=":droid:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /> flower-mouthed<img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie103" alt=":yack:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" />, greedy<img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie47" alt=":greedy:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /><img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie47" alt=":greedy:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" />, numismatist (?) had never come up with that nonsensical word "SMOOTHING" to describe fraudulentlyaltered coins, we would not be having this amount of confusion.  Note that no one talks anymore about the US Large cents that were formerly altered in many ways to make them more attractive.  They are album weeds and curiosities. The same thing has been done to ancient coins and they are market acceptable because THAT'S ALL WE HAVE! Before commenting <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie103" alt=":yack:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /><img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie103" alt=":yack:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /> further let me describe some of the things folks <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie30" alt=":bucktooth:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" />do to coins.  Most of them occur in degrees of severity.  Imagine a coin - the green one posted above.  The coin is corroded.  That is not the way it dropped off the die.  Nevertheless, to my eyes, it is a beautiful <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie60" alt=":kiss:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /> coin.  I believe folks call the green corrosion products on its surface a "patina."  What can we do to this coin to ruin it? 1. We can put it in a chemical that will strip it.  That's called CHEMICAL CLEANING. <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie3" alt=":(" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /> 2. We can buff it with a rotating wire brush.  That's called MECHANICAL CLEANING. <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie3" alt=":(" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /> 3. We can pick away at its relief surface with a sharp tool for different reasons - including adding or strengthing the design detail.  That's called TOOLING. <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie12" alt="o_O" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /> 4. We can add metal to the surface to build it up or hide something like a crack.  That's called a REPAIR. <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie3" alt=":(" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /> Repairs can also be done w/o adding any metal but by modifying the texture of the surface. 5. We can add a substance like sand, paint, shoe polish, etc. to the surface for whatever the reason.  That's called a SURFACE ALTERATION.  <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie3" alt=":(" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /> Note: All these terms were in use by professional <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie26" alt=":bookworm:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /><img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie33" alt=":cigar:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /> authenticators and graders decades before that word "smoothed" was cooked-up to sell altered coins more easily. Now let's talk about "degrees of" and "severity of" these treatments.  Mechanical Cleaning is the easiest to understand. <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie2" alt=";)" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /> My camel's hair brush cleans the surface but usually does no harm. My toothpaste on a brush <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie57" alt=":jawdrop:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" />cleans it as does my brillo pad <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie57" alt=":jawdrop:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /><img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie57" alt=":jawdrop:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" />, and don't forget the Dremel. <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie57" alt=":jawdrop:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /><img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie57" alt=":jawdrop:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /><img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie46" alt=":facepalm:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /> Tooling is another thing.  Often a surface is "burnished" (smoothed out with a tool) or "chased" when surface metal is pushed around for whatever the reason.  Tooling (burnishing = smooth/chased = smooth/tooled = sharp) is a surface alteration of a different nature than surface alterations done using chemicals.  Tooling is never called mechanical cleaning by any knowledgeable, professional numismatist I have known!  Now just to defuse any nonsensical comments...if I take a tool (even a rose thorn) and pick a bit of debris from the center of the letter "D" ...YES I'VE CLEANED THE COIN!  But PLEASE...<img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie92" alt=":stop:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /> IdesOfMarch01, posted: "I didn't mean to imply that I was altering my original definition of smoothing, which I still believe is the most reasonable definition.  I just meant to point out that it's possible to be overly pedantic about the definition of smoothing, which as I write above, is definitely NOT a reasonable definition of the term. Then why use it?  You say it is OK and then that it is NOT!  Words mean something.  IOM continued: "Yes, this seems to be the best term to distinguish between removing material and adding material to a coin.  OK, so what term is used to describe coins to which details have been added?  They're not tooled, not repaired... enhanced?" "Enhanced" is a great word.  Nice and flowery to hide the repair or reengraved design detail!  When details are added to a coin outside the Mint we call it an "altered coin" as it has been tooled; has a tooled design, has reengraved details."  Adding material to a coin has nothing to do with moving a coin's original surface or anything on it!  Adding things to a coin is an alteration. It's later: IOM continued: "I also have to assume that sometimes it's not possible to differentiate between encrustations and the coin's original surface when cleaning a coin.  [many times that is the case] Maybe the coin has a lot of raised bumps that appear to be encrustations and the individual decides to remove them during the cleaning process.  If the bumps were really encrustations and not original metal, then the coin hasn't been smoothed; but if the bumps were part of the coin's original surface and made during the striking process, then the coin has been smoothed.  Is it possible to tell the difference?  If so, how? Bumps on a coin are raised.  They would be pits in the die if they were part of the coin's design.  Know what you are conserving is a good start. If they are not part of the design it is some form of corrosion.  Removing them with an instrument is called tooling.  Depending on how well it is done...Well: undetectable conservation/Poorly, it may become a SURFACE ALTERATION that lowers the coin's desirability.  If you wish to call it smoothing, you are in good company.  The word seems to have caught on with folks selling altered coins.   "My conclusion is that any judgement of whether a coin has been just cleaned, smoothed, or overly smoothed will have a large subjective component to that judgement.  So for my collecting purposes, unless a coin has been overly smoothed to the point of detracting from that coin's original state, I'm comfortable with the probability that many of the bronzes I own may have areas of smoothing." If that works for you...I have some more coins to smooth. IdesOfMarch01, posted: "Because I've never cleaned a coin myself, I can't possibly be an expert on whether or not a particular ancient coin has been smoothed.  And in fact, as Doug writes above, I'm sure there are coins that only the original person who cleaned that coin would know whether or not the coin was also smoothed." You don't need to clean coins to tell it was not done correctly. The majority of Ancient coins with altered surfaces are easy to detect with a little study.  There was an article this year in Numismatic News dealing with that weasel word - "smoothed." medoraman, posted: "Plug filling [filling a hole by plugging it] would probably be a different category, In ancients, tooling means doctoring a coin, but filling a complete hole is usually not part of it. However, I would disagree with Insider that tooling never involves adding anything to a coin. Many times new metal or new "toning" is added to "add value" to a coin. <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie15" alt=":arghh:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /><img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie15" alt=":arghh:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /><img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie15" alt=":arghh:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" />AHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhh! <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie20" alt=":banghead:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /><img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie20" alt=":banghead:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /><img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie20" alt=":banghead:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" /> Adding metal to a coin is called "ADDING METAL TO A COIN."  When the added metal is moved around it is either a repair, chasing, or tooling.  Adding color to a coin is NOT WHAT WE ARE DISCUSSING!  Maybe it is semantics, but I have only thought of smoothing [forget about this word and everything becomes crystal clear]as pertaining to the fields. [That's the way it was originally cooked-up to be but as you can see in this thread, folks throw words around as they wish and now we are calling formes of cleaning "smoothing."]  [USER=39084]@IdesOfMarch01[/USER] posts an interesting coin with smoothing on the main device. To me, (and I could be totally wrong), "messing" with the devices I could call tooling even though its the same action as performed in the fields. Maybe my definition is wrong, but I call innocent or incidental smoothing of fields while cleaning acceptable, intentional smoothing of FIELDS smoothing, and messing with devices in any way tooling. The reason is the fields are incidental to the coin, but the devices and lettering are key, and messing with them more severe. Bottom line: "smoothing" on any part of a coin is simply a form of TOOLING.  Furthermore, "smoothing" is not cleaning by any stretch of the imagination!  <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie85" alt=":smuggrin:" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" />[/QUOTE]

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