Featured The Slabbed (NGC/PCGS) AT-QT (Artificial/Questionable Toning) Thread

ddddd · Nov 14, 2018

For those still guessing, we are on the Bust Half Dollar.

(The Eagle and Mardi Gras token are not part of the guessing...just an interesting aside).

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Lehigh96 · Nov 14, 2018

Refer to Rule #1

C-B-D · Nov 14, 2018

Lehigh96 said: ↑

Refer to Rule #1
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SilverDollar2017 · Nov 14, 2018

For the Bust half, looks NT to me.

Cheech9712 · Nov 14, 2018

Lehigh96 said: ↑

There has been much discussion on the forum lately about how easy it is to artificially tone coins and get them past the graders at NGC & PCGS. I contend that it is very difficult to get an AT/QT coin in a top tier slab whereas others think they are quite prevalent. I have decided to start this thread to see if we can help settle the debate and have a little fun in the process. Now, don't get mad, but this can't be a free for all, we gotta have some rules to the game, so here they are.

The Rules to the AT/QT game:

1) ONE COIN AT A TIME: We can't be discussing more than one coin at the same time, so if you have a coin that you want to include in the thread, please be patient and wait your turn. The rule for whose turn is next will be discussed a little later.

2) 1 POINT FOR MAJORITY RULES in 24 HOURS: Once a coin is posted, respondents may either deem the coin AT/QT (artificial/questionable toning) or NT/MA (Natural/Market Acceptable Toning). After 24 hours, we will tally up how many there are for each side and majority rules. If more than 50% of the respondents say the coin is AT/QT, the person who posted that coin gets a point.

3) ZERO POINTS FOR MORGAN DOLLARS & ASEs: In the thread that started this debate, it was discussed that the large majority of AT coins reside in these two series. So you are welcome to post a Morgan or ASE, but you will not receive any points for these coins.

4) WHO IS NEXT?: If you intend to post an AT/QT coin in the thread, please indicate this in your response. This way the next poster will be the first respondent of the current coin who indicates they would like to post a coin. Each time a new coin is posted, the position of next poster is erased and the first person who responds and indicates they have a coin will have the honor.

5) US Coins only: Like Morgan Dollars and ASEs, you can post one, but you get no points.

OK, I will start the game with a coin that was beautiful but just too expensive to keep considering I thought it to be AT/QT

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I like you Lehigh98. But not interested. I don't even attempt to play this tonning game

Cheech9712 · Nov 14, 2018

green18 said: ↑

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One of my favorite artist

Cheech9712 · Nov 14, 2018

GDJMSP said: ↑

It could very easily be NT, and it could very easily be AT. And absolutely nobody, with the possible exception of the original owner of the coin, could say one way or another with any degree of certainty. The only thing anybody can do is guess.

So far, there have been 4 responses that question the toning because they haven't seen or can't imagine how a coin could tone that color. Well, if one hasn't seen coins of that color/s or with that color/s on them then you simply haven't seen any. But just because you haven't seen something doesn't mean it doesn't exist, cant' exist. And if you can't imagine how it got that color, I would have to ask why not ? I mean all it takes for any coin to tone any color, in a perfectly natural way, is for the coin to be exposed the right contaminants in the air, and/or environmental conditions.

To start, these are 2 different examples of colors visible to the naked eye in the light spectrum, presented in 2 different charts.

View attachment 845110 View attachment 845111

And as you can see the color that is on that coin is present in both examples.

When it comes to toning people talk about color progression on a regular basis. And, some if not many seem to think that when it comes to toning that the colors on a coin have to follow that given progression, as represented in the charts above. This is simply not true. The reason it's not true is quite simple, it's because given contaminants (which can be read as different chemicals in the air) cause or create different colors on a coin. Some will cause reds, some will cause yellows, some greens, etc etc. But if a given contaminant is not present, then those colors simply not be seen. 1, 2, 3 or even more colors may be and can be completely skipped when it comes to toning.

And, if at one stage of a coins life, the coin is exposed to one set of contaminants causing given colors, and then the coin is sold or passed to another owner, it is exposed to a completely different set of contaminants causing given but different colors. So again colors can be skipped.

And, even if the coin is held by the same owner, if the conditions change in any way, then the colors of the toning can and will change. All of this is true because all toning is caused and created by what the coin is exposed to including temperature, moisture, and contaminants, and storage methods. And if any of them change then the toning changes.

Point is, there is no such thing as a given color progression in natural toning. Various colors can be and are produced on coins in a haphazard manner. Sure, color progression may happen given the right conditions, but there is absolutely nothing that dictates that it must happen !

So, all that is required for a given coin to tone a given color - is the right conditions. And given the right conditions even those shades of greens and blues, seen on the coin above, will be produced - in a completely natural way - NT.

Or, put the coin in a sealed box, pump in the right gasses, with the right temperature and moisture content, for the right amount of time, and the exact same colors will be produced on the coin, also in a completely natural way, but much faster.

And absolutely nobody will be able to tell one from the other because both coins were toned the same colors by exactly the same things, with the only differences being intent and the time frame involved.

Sure, gassing the coins is artificial, of that there is no doubt. But the results are identical, in every way, to natural toning because the exact same contaminants and conditions are what created the toning.

Now another example of what some call natural toning is album toning. Nobody ever calls it anything but natural toning ! But, if somebody buys an old album, deliberately places coins in it, stores it an extra warm place with a bit of added humidity, and before long you can have some beautifully toned coins.

Is that natural or artificial toning ? And can you tell one from the other ? The answer to the second question is absolutely not because they are identical and caused by exactly the same things. Just like the coins in the box are.

But the answer to the second question, that's gonna depend on whom you ask. Some will say it's completely natural, others will say it's artificial because it was done deliberately and intentionally accelerated.

Absolutely nobody doubts that old albums are used like this to tone coins. People post about it on a regular basis. Articles in coin magazines have even been written about it. Some collectors even brag about doing it and the success they have with it. But mention a sealed box with gasses pumped in, heat and humidity duplicated, and people will scoff and doubt and say it doesn't work, can't work. But it absolutely does work, and very, very, well. Just like with the old albums the only thing you are doing is duplicating the same conditions that natural toning occurs under.

And if you think you can tell one from the other, well then all you're doing is fooling yourself because you don't want to believe it's that easy. But it is that easy. And it is done every day and has been being done for years ! But in a controlled manner so as to not wreck the toner market. You don't kill the goose that lays gold eggs !

Everybody out there who owns beautiful toned coins, you can bet that some of the ones you own were toned artificially. But neither you nor anybody else, excepting the person who made them, is ever going to be able to identify them.

So the answer to the question for the coin above, nobody knows. It could easily be NT or AT. But you can guess, and you may even be right, regardless of your answer.
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After all that. You should of saved me alot of reading by saying. "Flip a coin"

Pickin and Grinin · Nov 14, 2018

I am NT/MA on the bust half. This is the first alert I have gotten about this thread since page 1.

ddddd · Nov 14, 2018

Pickin and Grinin said: ↑

I am NT/MA on the bust half. This is the first alert I have gotten about this thread since page 1.
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Alerts seem to be sporadic. At times I'll get a bunch and then other times there will be multiple posts and no alerts. I will try to tag a bunch of people from the toning thread when the next example is posted.

TheFinn · Nov 14, 2018

Look at all of the modern clad proofs with wild toning, as well as the ASEs. PCGS and NGC have dropped the ball on that account, and made a crazy market for that tripe.

Lehigh96 · Nov 14, 2018

TheFinn said: ↑

Look at all of the modern clad proofs with wild toning, as well as the ASEs. PCGS and NGC have dropped the ball on that account, and made a crazy market for that tripe.
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Modern clad proofs are capable of naturally toning with vivid colors and patterns. Don’t take this the wrong way, but we aren’t looking for broad accusations in this thread, we are looking for proof. If you have an example of a PCGS AT modern clad proof, let’s see it!

TheFinn · Nov 14, 2018

Lehigh96 said: ↑

Modern clad proofs are capable of naturally toning with vivid colors and patterns. Don’t take this the wrong way, but we aren’t looking for broad accusations in this thread, we are looking for proof. If you have an example of a PCGS AT modern clad proof, let’s see it!
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How about this beauty?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1973-S-Eis...=item1c86a13941:g:FGgAAOSwzoRZg1tF:rk:44:pf:0

Lehigh96 · Nov 14, 2018

TheFinn said: ↑

How about this beauty?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1973-S-Eis...=item1c86a13941:g:FGgAAOSwzoRZg1tF:rk:44:pf:0
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Yes, like that but you gotta wait your turn. Threads like this implode when we do more than one coin at a time.

At this point you should give your opinion on the CBH and state that you have a coin you want to share.

ddddd · Nov 14, 2018

Lehigh96 said: ↑

Yes, like that but you gotta wait your turn. Threads like this implode when we do more than one coin at a time.

At this point you should give your opinion on the CBH and state that you have a coin you want to share.
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Public service announcement: please read the rules and wait for your turn. Maybe we can start a secondary thread for side discussions or posting pictures?

Although I believe you can call the CBH @Lehigh96 as it’s clear where it’s headed.

Lehigh96 · Nov 14, 2018

ddddd said: ↑

Public service announcement: please read the rules and wait for your turn. Maybe we can start a secondary thread for side discussions or posting pictures?

Although I believe you can call the CBH @Lehigh96 as it’s clear where it’s headed.
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Can I give you the administrative power to call your own coins? You are actually really good at it from the Toning Premium Thread. I have a feeling you are gonna be posting most of the coins.

ddddd · Nov 14, 2018

Lehigh96 said: ↑

Can I give you the administrative power to call your own coins? You are actually really good at it from the Toning Premium Thread. I have a feeling you are gonna be posting most of the coins.
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Sure I can do that if you are fine with it.

Lehigh96 · Nov 14, 2018

ddddd said: ↑

Sure I can do that if you are fine with it.
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Go for it!

ddddd · Nov 14, 2018

Summary of results:
-----------------------

Coin 1 - Clad Dime (pg.1) - 2 (NT/MA) vs 6 (AT/QC)
Coin 2 - Franklin (pg. 1) - 3 (NT/MA) vs 7 (AT/QC)
Coin 3 - CBH (pg. 4) - 5 (NT/MA) vs 0 (AT/QC)
-----------------------

NT/MA: 1 total
AT/QC: 2 total

-----------------------
Points:
Lehigh96 - 1
ddddd - 1

ddddd · Nov 14, 2018

Next up is @TheFinn ebay find.
Points (if applicable) and credit go to him on this, I’m just posting the picture.

Link:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1973-S-Eis...=item1c86a13941:g:FGgAAOSwzoRZg1tF:rk:44f:0

ddddd · Nov 14, 2018

To me that one looks heat toned. The circular orb between “God” and “We” on the obverse is something that I notice on coins that have the AT look (although I’ve occasionally seen those on NT coins too). One guess is that is the spot where the “treatment” was applied (but it’s only a guess and not a certainty).

Final vote: QC/AT

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Featured The Slabbed (NGC/PCGS) AT-QT (Artificial/Questionable Toning) Thread

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Featured The Slabbed (NGC/PCGS) AT-QT (Artificial/Questionable Toning) Thread

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Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

C-B-D Well-Known Member

SilverDollar2017 Morgan dollars

Cheech9712 Every thing is a guess

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