The risks of buying raw coins.

Thanks for stopping by; I hope we can help.

I've posted two previous threads, one about the Barber quarter I bought from this guy, and one pointing out a large number of other fakes he was selling:

eBay, safety, return policy, and a counterfeit

Please help stop these eBay counterfeit auctions!

As you can see, he hasn't been stopped. The wording he used on his earlier auctions, and his eagerness to accept returns ("just don't open a case on me!"), make me suspect the he has known exactly what he's selling all along.

I would STRONGLY ENCOURAGE you to contact eBay directly, by telephone, if you receive your coin and determine that it's a fake. If you try to open a case immediately using eBay's on-line system, eBay will just tell you that you're within the seller's return window, and to do a return. Please don't do this; it'll just give this guy another chance to sell the "coin" to an unsuspecting buyer.

Yes, he has lots of ongoing positive feedback. This tells me that most of his buyers don't know how to spot a counterfeit, and that the ones who do are being lenient in their feedback. I've also seen posts on here suggesting that eBay is quick to remove negative feedback, at least in some cases, if the seller has voluntarily offered to accept a return and refund.

In the past, eBay had a group of knowledgeable volunteers who helped to police counterfeit auctions. That group was disbanded a year or two ago, and since then, the number of counterfeit sales appears to have skyrocketed. I'd like to think that if enough of us report this guy, eBay will shut him down, but I'm pessimistic. On the other hand, if nobody bothers to report him, I'm sure that he'll keep on selling with impunity.

Please feel free to ask any other questions you have, either here or (perhaps better) in a new thread. I'll be happy to help as much as I can, and there are plenty of knowledgeable folks here who can pitch in as well. (I'm still pretty much a beginner at spotting fakes, but we do have experts here.)

Two quick follow-up questions:

1) Can you post a link to the completed auction?

2) Do you have a coin dealer nearby who could provide an "expert opinion" on whether the coin you receive is authentic or not?

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

Counterfeit coins, and now counterfeit slabs...egads! So now what? A new group of TPGs to certify holders from current TPGs?
When I take ecommerce and electronic currency into consideration, then toss in counterfeiting....I can only see the hobby retreating at an ever accelerating rate.

 

Yes... first, don't buy unless you know what you're buying, and don't let yourself get sucked in by what appears to be a deal as this, more than anything else in my experience, is what leads to bad purchases, especially with those without the knowledge or abilities to properly authenticate.

Now, the other suggestion would be to wait until the package arrives before getting yourself all worked up about it. At this point, if bad, you're going to have to go through the motions anyway, so no reason to stress until you have to, but with that said, posting the links would be a fine start if you'd like assistance.

 

About 10 years ago I got a brass coin dipped in silver. I knew right off the bat it was too light...Ebay refunded my money, I cut into them all and exposed the brass and gave them to coin dealers to show others.

 

We all know the danger that you can find on eBay. So let's go back to the topic of how to determine whether a raw coin token paper money is real.it sounds like we're just stuck on eBay??

 

Good point, @jello. Ebay is not the whole world.

The first thing you can do to make sure what you're buying is real is buy it from a reliable dealer. For example, members of the Professional Numismatists Guild all follow the PNG Code of Ethics. Point 7 says they will not knowingly deal in counterfeit or altered material without disclosing it as such, and point 10 requires them to arbitrate any disputes.

In practice, what this means is that a PNG member dealer won't knowingly sell you a fake without telling you and will accept a return for a full refund if it's ever discovered to be a fake. Of course, any reputable dealer will do this, but the arbitration clause gives it teeth in the case of PNG members. (Oh, and a lot of ebay sellers are PNG members, too! I'm starting to sound like a PNG commercial, lol.) I suppose if you bought a fake from a dealer who refuses to take it back, you could threaten to get the law involved, but that's a whole different can of worms.

If you are purchasing a potentially valuable item (e.g. key date coins) raw, IMHO, beyond a certain level of value, it's always worthwhile to have it certified by PCGS, NGC, or ANACS. Even if you just crack it right out after it comes back and are confident in your ability to authenticate and grade it yourself, the $30 or so in fees is worth the peace of mind in buying a $1000+ coin, IMO. In fact, you should probably make an agreement with the dealer as part of the purchase that if you do this, and it comes back questionable authenticity, they'll buy it back for a full refund. Any reputable dealer will likely agree to this on such a valuable item, and, if not, it could be a good sign that they're not as reputable as they seem. A really great dealer will offer to submit it for you, if you pay the fees.

I could talk about testing weight, diameter, magnetism, composition (you can do this non-destructively with specialized equipment), specific gravity, checking die markers, etc, but the most important thing you can do is look at a lot of authentic coins. That way, when a fake comes up, it will look wrong, and you can proceed to test the piece in detail. And, if you're following what I said in the previous paragraph, you're having all your most valuable purchases professionally authenticated, anyway.

That's all I've got for now.

 

Good point. And if the "dealer" you're buying from, say, on that site that we aren't going to talk about any more, says something like this in the item description:

...it's probably a good idea to buy elsewhere.

 

Here's an update.. 1) Its not the coin in the listing. 2) The coin is fake.
I also found similar completed listings (same/similar date coins written up the same way) from another "seller", oddly living only a few miles apart. Example:
eBay item number:
400838552740
Also, the 'coin' I received (is) of a better grade than the one listed, yet each have an identical strike anomaly.
Will be interesting to see just how ebay handles this.

 

Oh, boy. I remember that he listed a couple of 1863 three-cent silvers, and then started putting them in "silver lots" with various common and/or fake coins. I figured he was trying to avoid trouble by not calling out the coin, and thus maintaining plausible deniability ("I never said it was a real 1863 trime").

If you open a case, eBay will probably tell you to send it back. Please don't do that; call again and/or ask to speak to a supervisor until they treat it as a counterfeit, not simply a "not-as-described coin".

 

I've dealt with ebay before. Sigh! So, I have no plans of sending it back. Haven't removed it from his holder either. He has listed, and sold, enough examples to prove intent. Did you check the other 'seller'? Could be the same guy. Anyway, I think there is enough to bring in a postal inspector.

 

Perhaps you could post photos of what you actually recieved. And yes... the seller Jeff linked and yours certainly could be the same or connected; their, ahem, "material" and locations are similar.

 

It will be tomorrow before I can post a pic. The one that I received has crisp lettering with separation from rim. Letters and numerals just a bit too large.

 

It didn't take long for me to once again be reminded by ebay that it is I who is the troublemaker. At the very least... they do not care! You guys seem to already be aware of the problem, so my venting here will just be redundant. I will just pursue the postal avenue. (inspector, not as is 'go')

 

Thought I would give you an update on my three-cent silver. It seems our boy has made himself scarce lately. le.le80 and billthekidks ID's have had no auctions in at least two weeks. As for my situation, I chose to turn it over to the Postal Inspector for investigation. With all the info (pictures, links, history etc.) I provided, the lady seemed excited that she would get to reign havoc on someone.

It really chaps my cookies that someone like this, and there are many others, gets away with stealing unsuspecting collectors trust as well as their money. The market is being flooded with counterfeits and it has trickled down to the inventories of some unsuspecting and less knowledgeable dealers. This causes mistrust within the industry. Worst yet, I have seen counterfeit gold, Morgans and copper slabbed in supposedly counterfeit NGC and PCGS holders. Dealers and collectors alike must now become experts in detecting fakes. I just hope that it doesn't drive away our young future collectors.

 

Thanks for following up here. I'll bet you're the first person who's taken this route with this seller. If it's making him nervous, that's making me pleased as punch.

 

It shouldn't. Cheating me never drove me away when I was a future young collector and they're just making the same mistakes I did and hopefully learning from them as I did.

 

The problem with Ebay you have to prove it's a counterfeit you need in there words a expert and then they will see what they will do same with paypal

Seller says it's a error and gives a refund case closed and back to selling

 

Yes, ebay's only remedy is to refund money and move on. Counterfeits will destroy a fun hobby.

This seller has passed more fakes than he has been caught with. The ones who called his hand sought a refund and their only satisfaction was leaving negative or neutral feedback. This time I choose to go another route. Did not seek a refund.

Confirmed coin was fake and turned it over, with documentation, to postal inspector. It was never removed from his holder.. with his hand writing and a greasy finger print. At the very least it was not the coin in the picture. He said that it would be. It was an obvious fake, btw.

Hopefully this will stop at least one bad seller, but I doubt that he will leave ebay.

 

Update!
I've heard nothing from the postal inspector (probably normal) and heard nothing from the seller after leaving negative feedback... Also, he hasn't had anything up for auction in about two months now.
Hopefully this has stopped at least one seller from slipping counterfeit coins into the hobby. If so, it was well worth the cost.
Too bad you can't inform those buyers of the fakes that they have been taken to the cleaners.

 

Postal inspector don't care if its not in the millions of $ and the seller will open a new on ebay