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<p>[QUOTE="DonnaML, post: 6460002, member: 110350"]I think what we have here is a failure to communicate, to paraphrase Strother Martin. Of course a new member doesn't need permission to make their first post a "kind and relevant" question. The problem is that whatever your intentions, in my opinion it came across as far from "kind" for you to immediately follow your initial congratulatory sentence to [USER=82616]@David Atherton[/USER] by asking him "why are you so sure that it depicts the Great Sphinx of Giza?" In other words, challenging him and putting the burden of proof on him, and then repeatedly interrogating him on why he didn't accompany his description with caveats. Not the kindest or gentlest way to raise the subject, whether or not someone is a newcomer! But especially when people don't know you, putting someone on the defensive like that comes across as unjustifiably belligerent.</p><p><br /></p><p>By the way, in response to your most recent question, I didn't assume anything. I'm merely acting as <i>pro bono</i> counsel here!</p><p><br /></p><p>I didn't know that the Sphinx's beard has been separately excavated. Can you cite anything to show that it was still attached to the monument's head in Roman times? If it was, then I guess that rules out the two Alexandrian sphinxes! (Which, by the way, sit on high pedestals, not on the ground/base line.)</p><p><br /></p><p>I suspect that it may be pointless to continue this discussion about what's the most reasonable way to interpret the representation on the coin (in terms of contemporaneous intentions and reactions), because I don't think either of us is about to change their mind. But I would suggest that in the future, perhaps you might try to avoid analogies like the ones you've made to support your arguments. Because the new one isn't any more persuasive than the other one. The general fame of Jesus (and the ubiquity of visual representations of Jesus) long pre-existed the statue in Rio de Janeiro. On the other hand, the Great Sphinx (even if one accepts that it's an Old Kingdom monument contemporary with the Pyramids of Giza, and isn't really 10,000 or 35,000 or 35 million years old!) was the ur-Sphinx, and its fame (along with its existence) long preceded its representations in amulets, scarabs, hieroglyphs, and smaller sculptures.</p><p><br /></p><p>See the 1994 book by Carol Andrews (a British Museum curator), entitled "Amulets of Ancient Egypt," stating at p. 78 that "Perhaps the most famous monument to have survived from ancient Egypt is the great sphinx which crouches beside the Valley Temple of the second pyramid at Giza. . . . The earliest firmly dated recumbent sphinx amulet comes from a First Intermediate Period burial at Mostagedda. . . formed from a sheet-gold cylinder with a flattened extension at the front representing the forepaws. The solid-cast head with roughly incised features and wearing a short wig has been soldered on." At pp. 78-79, there's a continued discussion of a variety of Sphinx amulet types. As time went on, different types like the female sphinx, the "Nubian"-style sphinx worn by young women in connection with birth (with a cat body instead of a lion), the sphinx with a jackal's head (hieracosphinx) or ram's head (criosphinx), etc. -- not to mention the Greek-style sphinx introduced later on -- became more common.</p><p><br /></p><p>The point is that the Great Sphinx preceded all of them, and it simply isn't logical to think that in the mind of the Romans and Greeks who controlled the Alexandrian mint, a crouching man-headed sphinx would have been intended to represent any specific sphinx other than the ur-Sphinx -- whose fame had obviously reached Rome; <i>viz</i>. Pliny the Elder. (Although it seems that you've now changed tacks a bit, and are arguing instead that the representation could have been of the idea or symbol of the sphinx rather than any specific statue.) Of course anything is possible, but caveats aren't always necessary in presenting the most obvious and reasonable interpretation. That's what [USER=82616]@David Atherton[/USER] presented. You, on the other hand, haven't even been willing to concede that an intention to represent the Great Sphinx is more likely than not. Instead, you wanted him to say only that "perhaps" that was the intention. Injecting a degree of doubt that seems wholly unjustifiable.</p><p><br /></p><p>The burden was yours to show why another interpretation does make equal or greater sense, and I don't think you've met it. It simply <u>isn't</u> true that <u>this</u> type of Sphinx "appeared everywhere: in sculptures, images, hieroglyphs <u>and... coins</u>!" (emphasis supplied): as I've pointed out, it very much didn't appear everywhere on coins. See the <a href="http://ancientcoinage.org/the-great-sphinx.html" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://ancientcoinage.org/the-great-sphinx.html" rel="nofollow">http://ancientcoinage.org/the-great-sphinx.html</a> link I posted above, showing "crouching man-headed Sphinx" coin-types issued by only three other emperors besides Domitian: Trajan, Antoninus Pius, and Marcus Aurelius. Emmett also lists a crouching sphinx issued in the name of Faustina II, but I haven't seen a photo of it. To me, the fact that such numismatic representations were so rare and special in Roman Egypt makes it more, not less, likely that they were intended to portray the Great Sphinx -- famous in the Roman world -- and not some lesser, imitative sphinx statue or symbol.</p><p><br /></p><p>It's hard to imagine what else I could say on the subject, so I'm not likely to post about it again. Although I must admit that I have a weakness for always wanting the last word. I practiced law for almost 40 years and it's ingrained in me.[/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>
[QUOTE="DonnaML, post: 6460002, member: 110350"]I think what we have here is a failure to communicate, to paraphrase Strother Martin. Of course a new member doesn't need permission to make their first post a "kind and relevant" question. The problem is that whatever your intentions, in my opinion it came across as far from "kind" for you to immediately follow your initial congratulatory sentence to [USER=82616]@David Atherton[/USER] by asking him "why are you so sure that it depicts the Great Sphinx of Giza?" In other words, challenging him and putting the burden of proof on him, and then repeatedly interrogating him on why he didn't accompany his description with caveats. Not the kindest or gentlest way to raise the subject, whether or not someone is a newcomer! But especially when people don't know you, putting someone on the defensive like that comes across as unjustifiably belligerent. By the way, in response to your most recent question, I didn't assume anything. I'm merely acting as [I]pro bono[/I] counsel here! I didn't know that the Sphinx's beard has been separately excavated. Can you cite anything to show that it was still attached to the monument's head in Roman times? If it was, then I guess that rules out the two Alexandrian sphinxes! (Which, by the way, sit on high pedestals, not on the ground/base line.) I suspect that it may be pointless to continue this discussion about what's the most reasonable way to interpret the representation on the coin (in terms of contemporaneous intentions and reactions), because I don't think either of us is about to change their mind. But I would suggest that in the future, perhaps you might try to avoid analogies like the ones you've made to support your arguments. Because the new one isn't any more persuasive than the other one. The general fame of Jesus (and the ubiquity of visual representations of Jesus) long pre-existed the statue in Rio de Janeiro. On the other hand, the Great Sphinx (even if one accepts that it's an Old Kingdom monument contemporary with the Pyramids of Giza, and isn't really 10,000 or 35,000 or 35 million years old!) was the ur-Sphinx, and its fame (along with its existence) long preceded its representations in amulets, scarabs, hieroglyphs, and smaller sculptures. See the 1994 book by Carol Andrews (a British Museum curator), entitled "Amulets of Ancient Egypt," stating at p. 78 that "Perhaps the most famous monument to have survived from ancient Egypt is the great sphinx which crouches beside the Valley Temple of the second pyramid at Giza. . . . The earliest firmly dated recumbent sphinx amulet comes from a First Intermediate Period burial at Mostagedda. . . formed from a sheet-gold cylinder with a flattened extension at the front representing the forepaws. The solid-cast head with roughly incised features and wearing a short wig has been soldered on." At pp. 78-79, there's a continued discussion of a variety of Sphinx amulet types. As time went on, different types like the female sphinx, the "Nubian"-style sphinx worn by young women in connection with birth (with a cat body instead of a lion), the sphinx with a jackal's head (hieracosphinx) or ram's head (criosphinx), etc. -- not to mention the Greek-style sphinx introduced later on -- became more common. The point is that the Great Sphinx preceded all of them, and it simply isn't logical to think that in the mind of the Romans and Greeks who controlled the Alexandrian mint, a crouching man-headed sphinx would have been intended to represent any specific sphinx other than the ur-Sphinx -- whose fame had obviously reached Rome; [I]viz[/I]. Pliny the Elder. (Although it seems that you've now changed tacks a bit, and are arguing instead that the representation could have been of the idea or symbol of the sphinx rather than any specific statue.) Of course anything is possible, but caveats aren't always necessary in presenting the most obvious and reasonable interpretation. That's what [USER=82616]@David Atherton[/USER] presented. You, on the other hand, haven't even been willing to concede that an intention to represent the Great Sphinx is more likely than not. Instead, you wanted him to say only that "perhaps" that was the intention. Injecting a degree of doubt that seems wholly unjustifiable. The burden was yours to show why another interpretation does make equal or greater sense, and I don't think you've met it. It simply [U]isn't[/U] true that [U]this[/U] type of Sphinx "appeared everywhere: in sculptures, images, hieroglyphs [U]and... coins[/U]!" (emphasis supplied): as I've pointed out, it very much didn't appear everywhere on coins. See the [URL]http://ancientcoinage.org/the-great-sphinx.html[/URL] link I posted above, showing "crouching man-headed Sphinx" coin-types issued by only three other emperors besides Domitian: Trajan, Antoninus Pius, and Marcus Aurelius. Emmett also lists a crouching sphinx issued in the name of Faustina II, but I haven't seen a photo of it. To me, the fact that such numismatic representations were so rare and special in Roman Egypt makes it more, not less, likely that they were intended to portray the Great Sphinx -- famous in the Roman world -- and not some lesser, imitative sphinx statue or symbol. It's hard to imagine what else I could say on the subject, so I'm not likely to post about it again. Although I must admit that I have a weakness for always wanting the last word. I practiced law for almost 40 years and it's ingrained in me.[/QUOTE]
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