The results of my ebay coin

You do have an ID on the CONECA forums, post your coin over there and see exactly what Mike has to say.

 

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If I recall correctly, Mike Diamond already said this was an altered coin in one of the two threads about this coin.

Also, someone disagreeing is not an automatic insult.

 

I spent that time posting on it, what does that make me? lol

 

I consider Mike my one of my friends and he is welcome to say what he wants too or anyone else about my coin.Mike and me don't always agree on everything but who does . this child like stuff some of you are trying to down me with just like when you call me a liar , this is what I'm saying Mike probably would not put up with. you and the others doing this need to go back and reread the rules of this forum and abide by them. your little group has run many folks off this forum or caused them to quit. this will not work on me. I just got thru this morning receiving a PM from one of you ordering me to not post another coin again on this forum. well I do not think any of you that is acting up owns the CT forum so I'm here to stay as long as the owners don't tell me to leave.

 

:arguing:

 

No one will be asked to leave as long as they stay within the rules and remember that the forum is not here so people can push points or agendas that are theirs alone and can not be supported.

If a person posts a coin they are basically opening it for discussion and opinions. So one should be prepared for opinions that do not confirm theirs. Dealing with photos and written descriptions does not lead to positive identification very often, So deal with the opinions. If a person doesn't like to get opposing opinions, then say "I am just showing this coin, I don't want any opinions on it". But if you give your opinion, you are asking for counter opinions because to allow it to stand unchallenged would be wrong. You can't have it both ways. Be a gentleman and say thank you, and let it go.

It doesn't ring true to say a person is trying to educate the members, if they keep saying things to imply that "gee aren't you as smart as me to see it?" Try to be a professional educator or student and say straight out why you have such an opinion, pro and con.

If you have no idea, don't post something "cute" response just to see your avatar in the chain. The odd thing is that as I read this thread along the way, I realized that one side was trying to convince the other side and visa versa , over and over, and over! gag! I am sorry, both sides were wrong, sounded like Congress!!

Sorry for the rant, but I was afraid this would continue for no good. So lets stop the bickering.

Jim

 

Hey great post here Jim and I totally agree with what you wrote. The coin in this thread is so unusal I have never seen one like it and I may have made the wrong call when I said ICG had it labeled wrong. This may have been what caused some of the bickering. the coin does look like a hammer job in the photos but not when in hand. I'm almost sure now that ICG got it right and I got it wrong by not examining the reverse side of the coin . This coin will be going out to one of my friends Mr. Wexler tomorrow plus the other weird cent coin I had on here. I know two opinions or more are needed on these unusal and not often seen error and variety coins. Troy

 

Well, at the very least this turned out to be a good learning experience for people interested in psychology, if not coins. Specifically, unhealthy psychology.

Good thing for the ignore option on this forum. That'll sure help me not waste any more time arguing aimlessly.

 

I feel it's important to question, questionable information. That's how things get figured out. Heck, the op changes his mind several times as to what the coin is. Those changes came about because of others questioning what was posted. I trust Mike's post is correct but will trust John Wexler's opinion even more if he actually sees the coin in hand.

I quit posting in the threads about this coin because I don't care to be talked down to, just for having a different opinion. I don't think John will ever see this coin but look forward to the results if he does.

After 40+ years of collecting clash die coins, I would like to learn how a clash can reach into the lower parts of a die.
I can see how an off-center clash with the dies at an angle can cause it but past that?

 

I know that I should not reply to this post for different reasons,anyway I will try to give out some more information that may be helpful to someone. I will try to help anyone that needs my help . I think I may have already told this info. before on here and looks like no one read it. there are probably different ways a die can reach up into the recessed areas of the other die. I have a few more coins here to prove it is possible. two of my cent coins are from the same set of dies and have the memorial building visible all the way across Lincolns neck and not from a rotated reverse like the one in this thread.

not long ago I also thought this was impossible until I learned better. the reverse side of this coin shows a deep looking curvature in in it that looks like the coin is bent inwards towards the obverse side and directly opposite the clash marks and the reverse side is rotated perfectly to line up with the OBV. clash marks. the OBV. side is normal looking and level except for the clash marks.


this pretty much tells us that the rotated reverse die probably had a upwards warp to it or whatever we want to call it right there at the right hand side of the memorial building. this would allow this one part of the building to clash up into the recesses of Lincoln's chin on the OBV. side.

you need to know that I do my best to never tell anyone a lie and if I ever do tell a lie it would have to be done unknowingly to me. like say for example I thought sure ICG had made a bad call on this unusal coin and I said so. I already apoligized to them here on this thread. I'm man enough to say I'm sorry when I'm wrong. yes the coin plus two more is on it's way to John today. that other funky looking cent coin I shown on here a while back I have a strong gut feeling it is also a true mint error but can't quite possibly figure out what got in between the die cap and the planchet or really what happened , hopefully John or some of his other friends can figure it out.

 

But you, as a moderator are also allowing others to make not so very nice comments about rascal. I'm not saying I'm not agreeing with many of the "experts" on here who hear one thing from their buddies and decide to gang up on the guy, but also act childish.

People are giving honest opinions, true but because rascal believes in something different, why can't the pros move on? Just makes no sense to me....lol

It's just like the old saying "put up... or shut up." Really? So it's your way and the others or NO WAY, correct?
I would understand Numismat liking those beautiful words, but Jim?

I hope the guy sends the coin in and gets it photographed and authenticated soon.

I'm here "zach67005".
Can I help you?

​

 

Rascal,

It sure would have been a lot simpler if you had stated your theory back in post #106, but this still raises some more questions for me so please indulge me if you will.

First, does this "warp" (for lack of a better word) extend across the coin from, say, 3 o'clock to 9 o'clock? Or is it more like 4 o'clock to, say, 11 o'clock? The first would be like drawing a line through the center of a circle representing the diameter, and the second would be like drawing a line representing an arc segment (not through the center) of a circle.

While it is conceivable that a portion of the blanking strip could be warped (or bent), how could the warped blank go through the upsetting mill without getting stuck or jammed in the mechanism?

If the blank was "normal" going into the upsetting mill, at what point could it have become warped? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the next step in the process a "final wash" before the planchet goes to the coining chamber?

Now, back to the direction and position of the warp. Assuming that you are correct that the reason the clash shows in the recesses of Lincoln's face is because the planchet was warped enabling it to make contact with the reverse die, shouldn't there also be evidence of the clash on the left side of the obverse where the reverse lettering along the rim would make contact?

While it is possible that no evidence of the clash need exist on the reverse of the coin, shouldn't we expect to see some weakness in the strike of the central devices and a somewhat stronger strike along the rim where it turns (slightly) upward because of the warp?

Chris

 

Rigo,

The folks who have crossed the line have been PM'ed and asked to tone it down. Most of the discussion however has been civil... just heated.

 

Chris I remember talking to before quite a while back about my other extremely unusal cent coin. I can tell from reading your posts that you do know a few things about coins, I could recognise this right away. You will just have to go back and reread a few of my later posts because it's hard to explain and I have already tried to explain it. you didn't understand what I wrote or read it wrong. the planchet is not what was warped , the reverse coin die was what bent , warped or whatever we want to call if. a warped planchet when struck becomes a normal coin when struck by the dies because the dies will level the planchet back to normal. this is a die issue and not a planchet issue.

 

Hey Rigo, you took that a bit out of context. Mat said that when rascal kept repeatedly refusing to post pictures of the coin. The thread had no good pics of the coin, but rascal was very insistent on what he felt the coin was. I "liked" because I agreed, and so did many others who asked for pics of the coin instead of arguing blindly.

I didn't in any way see it as him telling rascal to agree with everyone or leave. That would have been pretty outrageous.

 

That is correct... that was my intention with that comment. You can argue all day... or you can post some better pictures so people can make more observations and come to their own conclusions. I was simply trying to tell him that if people were to believe what he was saying we were going to need better pictures. That's all. If you took anything else than that from my comment... you were mistaken.

 

This is what I thought you might be implying, but I wanted to rule out the possibility of a clash & warped planchet, first, for the benefit of others.

Below, is a photo of a Roosevelt die that I borrowed from an eBay listing. As you can see, the diameter of the hardened steel is quite substantial, even down to the face of the die. Now, I realize that this is for striking dimes, but since the dime and cent are very close to the same diameter, it will serve the purpose for illustration leading to my next question..........

How can the face of the die warp to cause what you have proposed?

Thanks,

Chris

 

Thank you for posting a picture of a die. The only way I could see reverse subsistence happening (where the die sinks due to poor metal composition or something like that) also seems to be negated by the amount of metal the subsistence has to go through from the top down to where the striking surface is. That doesn't seem likely or even possible. Perhaps if someone knows the physical capabilities of a die this diameter and height that would make that possible, it would help.

As far as actual "warping" (think of a thin record that warps, where it bends in different places and is no longer flat), I'd like to know how, other that due to subsistence or where the die surface becomes sunken in (not out), a die surface at the end of a mint die like this can "warp".

 

Now we are talking , I thank you for the photo of the die. Hopefully this will help me to explain to you how a die can become buckled or warped. they can become buckled or warped in either direction UP or DOWN. this has to do with whatever caused the problem , excessive die heat and wear and tear also can cause this. notice in the photo how far the face of the die extends out from the die shaft. this is where the weakest part is and the damage occurs most often. if only one side of the die is pushed downward this creates a upwards wrinkle in one side of the die then it can clash up into the recessed areas of the other die and end up making coins like the one in this thread. if both sides of the die is pushed down this creates a upwards curvature across the die .if it then happens to clash with the other die then the memorial building on a cent coin is visible all the way across Lincolns neck. If you don't believe me just ask BJ Neff we both learned this together. I have two 2000 p cents from the same set of dies with the memorial building showing totally across the recessed area of Lincoln's neck. this plainly shows us to stop judging coins from just a photo,this is just like trying to judge a book by it's cover. I told you a while back that some coins can not be authenticated from photos . photos are not like the actual coin is unless it's a well known error coin and extremely easy to see.

 

Magic! =)