The PCGS Coin Sniffer

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by raider34, Jan 28, 2011.

  1. debordj

    debordj Debo

    Wanted to ask everyone's opinions - taking a different spin on this.

    Wouldn't the Sniffer eventually hurt PCGS's business long-term?

    There is only a finite supply of older gradable coins and eventually they will (majority) get submitted and graded. For those that are not, if anyone is worried about any problem that will come up as altered by the Sniffer, they probably won't spend the money and get it submitted.

    PCGS has certainly put focus on grading modern issues each year and bullion, but that won't sustain the massive organization when the numbers of early coins dwindles. I would think they would want to grade as much as they can...they are profit driven for sure!

    Thoughts?
     
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  3. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    I think the sniffer was implemented because of the huge liability that PCGS has with doctored coins in their holders, and I, for one, applaud PCGS for implementing new technologies in the face of the ever-increasing problem with doctored coins.
     
  4. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Probably not.

    The point where the majority of older, gradeable coins had already been slabbed was reached some time ago. The accuracy of this statement is confirmed by several things. First and foremost of those would be the major switch made by NGC back around 2001-02. Prior to that date NGC would not grade any coin minted past 1964. It was also about that time that moderns began being submitted to PCGS in huge numbers.

    Back then, NGC was grading about 75,000 coins a month and PCGS about 90,000 a month. Today, PCGS does about 140,000 a month and NGC about 150,000 a month. That's a huge increase in only 8 or 9 years. But the majority of those coins are moderns and bullion coins. And we have a total of approximatley 125 million coins in NGC and PCGS slabs combined.

    There was also a study done and published in Coin World back in 2002 (if memory serves) where they figured out an approximation of how many coins were being graded more than once. Back then the study concluded that 20% was a conservative number. Since then, resubmitting coins in the hope of an upgrade has much more prevalent than it ever was. This is partly due to changes on grading standards and partly due to more and more people trying to get in on the upgrade bandwagon.

    Also consider, experts agree that of all the raw coins left out there 80% or more of them are problem coins that will never be slabbed in regular slabs. And of course in just past couple of years NGC and PCGS both have started slabbing problem coins, but placing either in Genuine slabs or Detail slabs. And this was after 20 years of promising that they would never, ever, do that.

    Then also consider, that PCGS does not put every coin submitted to them into the Coin Sniffer. They only use the Sniffer on coins submitted under the Secure Plus grading tier. All other coins are stil graded by hand and eye just like they always were. So that means that only a tiny percentage of their total submissions would even stand a chance of being rejected.

    And, there are also the coins that are being submitted yet again, for perhaps the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or even 5th times in their lives

    Thus the Sniffer actually helps increase the number of submissions.

    All of these things point to the fact that the majority of all problem free, older coins were already in slabs approximately 8 or 9 years ago. That is of course considering US coins only. There are still many, many millions of world coins out there yet to be slabbed.

    So I don't think the Sniffer will have any but the smallest effect on reducing submissions to NGC (NGC has its own sniffer too ya know) and PCGS.
     
  5. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    That's way too high considering that each of the two services are only claiming 20 million each and many of those are crossovers and cracked out resubmissions. Closer would probably be around 30 million total.
     
  6. illini420

    illini420 1909 Collector

    Just read this thread for the first time and it seems that many here may misunderstand this technology. The sniffer is designed to detect many different substances, but those substances aren't necessarily "banned" nor will the detection of those substances on the coin automatically result in a coin becomming ungradable. If anything is detected on the coin, whether it be nose grease, blue ribbon or urine, a printout of the subtance(s) detected and location of the substances on the coin are passed along with the coin to the grading room where the graders will then do their job and determine if the coin is gradable.

    The information from the sniffer seems to be a tool to provide the grader with some additional information on a coin they may or may not already be able to see with their eyes. But at the end of the day, the grader is still the one who is the judge on whether or not the coin is gradable, not the sniffer.

    Accordingly, I'm sure that some coins that have things detected on them by the sniffer will still end up in holders if the graders determine they are very minor treatments or market acceptable treatments. But overall, if the technology helps the graders in "seeing" the work of the coin doctors and removing the big problem coins from the market, then it would be hard to be against that.
     
  7. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    You're right, I screwed up on that number :eek:

    What I should have said was 45 million, PCGS claims over 20 million and NGC now claims 25 million, or so I have read.
     
  8. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    What makes you think this ?

    I mean I understand about the info being passed on to the graders, but if the substances were acceptable why bother looking for them to begin with ?
     
  9. Southernman189

    Southernman189 Well-Known Member

    All of this brings me back to NOT cleaning coins PERIOD unless they are dug out of the dirt. What was acceptable a decade ago isn't good today. What about ten years from now? Will you have a coin that was TREATED responsibly but now black listed due to new findings? I'll leave all chemicals off my coins and enjoy the hobby naturally, No cleaning here.
     
  10. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Your choice of course, but what do you do when then is something harmful on the coin - just leave it there ?

    Here's the thing. If coins were never properly cleaned then we wouldn't have about 80-90% of all the wonderful coins that we do have. The only reason they still exist is because someone has used proper cleaning on them over the years.
     
    JAY-AR likes this.
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